Indian pseudoshashka

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 16th July 2016, 08:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

I have already expressed my opinion on that on the "other" thread.
Again, IMHO, the "tunkou" has nothing to do with the S.Indian technique of attaching the blade to the handle.
Was the "tunkou" brought by the ancient nomads through their successors ( Babur in India, for example, Seljuks in Iran and Turkey) or later on by the Ottoman influences, I do not know for now, and this is an immensely important question.

Salaams Ariel, I continue to suggest that the two threads be amalgamated...My questions are; from where does this blade style including the decoration at the throat originate and in fact what is the name of this weapon and where is it from? The use of the term Tunkou is as you say not Indian however, we may not need to get hung up on that as it is only a term which I have used rather cross pollinated from another countries form...I think we just mean the design at the throat ...but one never can tell!

In the case of this sword which I think could be a hybrid or even formed of different regional weapons and possibly a European blade we know very little of its origins but influence seems to be broad based including Pesh Kabz, Kard, Patta, and several others regarding throat decoration and from a lot of weapons with the peculiar hand guard including even Sri Lankan Kastane.... It may be nothing to do with the Yatagan or Shashka. It is for this reason...in wanting to focus on its origin that I have asked for a joining of the threads...so that the full weight of Forum can be brought to bare on this problem.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 17th July 2016, 12:52 PM

I find a small reference to the Chinese potential nature of such weapons... Quote "
Kouming Dao

* Ho & Bronson 2004 p111
"... the [Qianlong] emperor appears to have been quite fond of non-traditional curved sabers of the Indian and Middle Eastern type, often furnished with jade hilts carved in the Indian Mughal style. Some were imitations made in the imperial armory in Beijing."

* Ho & Bronson 2004 p114 f127
"Qianlong ordered a total of sixty ceremonial curved swords on five occasions, in 1748, 1757, 1779, 1793, and 1795. Each sword was named and numbered, and all were identical in length, weight, and basic design. The scabbards were made either of red or green stingray skin and or patterned bark. The swords differed in terms of their inlaid details and the style of the hilts. Hilts made after completion of the 1757 batch were mostly in Mughal style, often with gold and inlaid gems."Unquote.

I can find not much in the way of pictures but I saw a good parrot or bird head pommel dagger in the Mughal style and place here below for reference...Regarding the Chinese connection it is interesting that a sister Chinese sword has the bolstering at the throat but reversed...more on that later...

I think it wise enough ...to consider the bolstered throat rather than just the decorative often koftgari technique in comparing the weapon and that this is where the direction of research seems to point...even though the decorative similarities may be compelling. I place some decorative reference and some knuckle guard comparison etc below...in addition. In adding the peculiar s bend blade inh an Indian style of ceremonial sword I do so to illustrate bolstering and note that many Indian weapons have something similar in their design. I say this to caution against too much emphasis on comparison to the Yatagan...although they may be related ...so may be many others.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 17th July 2016, 01:40 PM

Blade. In comparing blades ...and again the Yatagan springs to mind however, the Sosun Pata is Indias take on blades of that shape https://indiansforguns.com/viewtopic...=20125#p193554 refers to blade shape and the general high class nature of the weapon in question ...possibly as a court sword...etc

With an eye on the Chinese potential
Pei Dao illustrate how the bolstering at the the throat or Tunkou is actually the reverse format of the Indian type...Shown below with the red hilt.

The Kouming Du however is known to have been influenced by Moghul form...many having been exported to India ...Shown below with the white Hilt and greenish scabbard.

Below top... are 3 swords; The top one of which may fall into the Sosun Pata blade category which was taken from Yatagan style..but is Indian. Given a high class jade or crystal hilt (for VIP/court sword use) I suggest that this is the same family ... Are we therefor looking at an amalgam of Chinese/Indian style perhaps further complicated in some having European blades added later?

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 18th July 2016, 12:01 PM

PLEASE NOTE http://thomaschen.freewebspace.com/custom3.html where much of the groundbreaking research was carried out by Mr Philip Tom. The article notes a fashion in Chinese swords and close ties with sword influence going both ways. Swords made in Beijing were exported to India after 1761 . Further ..a common description amongst Chinese sword design was the pistol grip which is essentially the same as the bird head or parrot head hilt. Note also the practice of cutting grooves in the blade and inserting pearls which roll up and down the grooves; This is a direct copy from Indian blades of that form.

Shown in addition below is the trend in Indian blades; both sword and dagger, of decorating the throat with a cartouche done in Koftgari form but that in the project sword this is of Tunkou style essentially a reinforcement plate giving support to the hilt and enabling a tighter fit for the blade into the scabbard....something koftgari design does not do...nor was it designed to.

Given that in the late 1700s Chinese swords were exported to India it stands to reason that the Tunkou was in fact part of this design imported on these weapons but turned the other way...perhaps to satisfy Indian taste from purely an aesthetic viewpoint as it looked better? See thye Chinese form below.

Regarding the pistol grip hilt which was a Chinese ingredient it is commonly seen in Indian hiltsb although the6y a4re no slouch when it comes to
Zoomorphic hilts...The Indian parrot hilt may by now be a mixed and morphed design though birdhead hilts may go back further in Indian style and it ma6y be simply co incidental. Non the less Chinese pistol grip hilts were common during the period and as a note to the margin of this interesting design.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 19th July 2016, 03:33 AM

It occurred to me to consider the Turkic influence and to address the very pertinent questions earlier in this thread as to the major design fashion/highlight of the project sword at the throat illustrating how India absorbed both the Koftgari and Tunkou aspects but more importantly where its own source of such style is present. Bolstered blades are common to Indian style as are koftgari decorations at the throat. Chinese weapons were quite late in the 17th C...and of a reversed Tunkou style not common in Indian swords. The time scale of Turkic cross pollination of style seems to better fit the picture moreover Hindu and Buddhist decorative style seems to indicate a far earlier transition in Indian sword decoration. See the Tibetan form below. Common to Indian, Ottoman and Chinese hilt style are the birdheads or Parrot form hilts...Zoomorphic hilts developed as a consequence of artistic and cultural style thus pistol grip design cannot be attributed specific to either except that the timeline would indicate favouring the Ottoman influence going back to Turkic influence. The knuckle guard can be seen across India and neighboring regions including the Sri Lankan Kastane but also in mainline weapons such as Tulvar etc...On blade style it is noted that Indian Sosun Pata form derived from the Ottoman Yatagan.

Thus having compared the weapon at 1 and its derivatives I conclude that this weapon probably originated in Turkic fashion spreading through Ottoman style into Indian via the influence of the Yatagan as well as additions from Indian home grown design. Although interesting the Chinese influence appears too late in proceedings and has the added hurdle of a Tunkou reversed in design placement on Chinese swords...

To compare the way influence flowed from India to China and vice versa...see Thomas chens detail at http://thomaschen.freewebspace.com/photo2.html where he notes Quote" Chinese and Islamic sabers, owing to both having a common ancestor (the Turko-Mongol saber), and also due to mutual cross-pollination and interaction, have several common features" Unquote.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 20th July 2016, 03:14 AM

Having said all that... I am acutely aware of similar form and style seeping into Afghanistan sword form...and have prepared a picture to support that below. Meanwhile your comments are invited on the discussion so far...

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 20th July 2016, 04:09 AM

Forum Library Reference.

In a separate development I also note for readers the following thread http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2411 which is from 2006 and examines Chirkas which is another close form ..

17th July 2016, 12:52 PM	#2
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	I find a small reference to the Chinese potential nature of such weapons... Quote " Kouming Dao * Ho & Bronson 2004 p111 "... the [Qianlong] emperor appears to have been quite fond of non-traditional curved sabers of the Indian and Middle Eastern type, often furnished with jade hilts carved in the Indian Mughal style. Some were imitations made in the imperial armory in Beijing." * Ho & Bronson 2004 p114 f127 "Qianlong ordered a total of sixty ceremonial curved swords on five occasions, in 1748, 1757, 1779, 1793, and 1795. Each sword was named and numbered, and all were identical in length, weight, and basic design. The scabbards were made either of red or green stingray skin and or patterned bark. The swords differed in terms of their inlaid details and the style of the hilts. Hilts made after completion of the 1757 batch were mostly in Mughal style, often with gold and inlaid gems."Unquote. I can find not much in the way of pictures but I saw a good parrot or bird head pommel dagger in the Mughal style and place here below for reference...Regarding the Chinese connection it is interesting that a sister Chinese sword has the bolstering at the throat but reversed...more on that later... I think it wise enough ...to consider the bolstered throat rather than just the decorative often koftgari technique in comparing the weapon and that this is where the direction of research seems to point...even though the decorative similarities may be compelling. I place some decorative reference and some knuckle guard comparison etc below...in addition. In adding the peculiar s bend blade inh an Indian style of ceremonial sword I do so to illustrate bolstering and note that many Indian weapons have something similar in their design. I say this to caution against too much emphasis on comparison to the Yatagan...although they may be related ...so may be many others. Attached Images Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 17th July 2016 at 01:28 PM.

17th July 2016, 01:40 PM	#3
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	Blade. In comparing blades ...and again the Yatagan springs to mind however, the Sosun Pata is Indias take on blades of that shape https://indiansforguns.com/viewtopic...=20125#p193554 refers to blade shape and the general high class nature of the weapon in question ...possibly as a court sword...etc With an eye on the Chinese potential Pei Dao illustrate how the bolstering at the the throat or Tunkou is actually the reverse format of the Indian type...Shown below with the red hilt. The Kouming Du however is known to have been influenced by Moghul form...many having been exported to India ...Shown below with the white Hilt and greenish scabbard. Below top... are 3 swords; The top one of which may fall into the Sosun Pata blade category which was taken from Yatagan style..but is Indian. Given a high class jade or crystal hilt (for VIP/court sword use) I suggest that this is the same family ... Are we therefor looking at an amalgam of Chinese/Indian style perhaps further complicated in some having European blades added later? Attached Images Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 17th July 2016 at 02:50 PM.

18th July 2016, 12:01 PM	#4
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	PLEASE NOTE http://thomaschen.freewebspace.com/custom3.html where much of the groundbreaking research was carried out by Mr Philip Tom. The article notes a fashion in Chinese swords and close ties with sword influence going both ways. Swords made in Beijing were exported to India after 1761 . Further ..a common description amongst Chinese sword design was the pistol grip which is essentially the same as the bird head or parrot head hilt. Note also the practice of cutting grooves in the blade and inserting pearls which roll up and down the grooves; This is a direct copy from Indian blades of that form. Shown in addition below is the trend in Indian blades; both sword and dagger, of decorating the throat with a cartouche done in Koftgari form but that in the project sword this is of Tunkou style essentially a reinforcement plate giving support to the hilt and enabling a tighter fit for the blade into the scabbard....something koftgari design does not do...nor was it designed to. Given that in the late 1700s Chinese swords were exported to India it stands to reason that the Tunkou was in fact part of this design imported on these weapons but turned the other way...perhaps to satisfy Indian taste from purely an aesthetic viewpoint as it looked better? See thye Chinese form below. Regarding the pistol grip hilt which was a Chinese ingredient it is commonly seen in Indian hiltsb although the6y a4re no slouch when it comes to Zoomorphic hilts...The Indian parrot hilt may by now be a mixed and morphed design though birdhead hilts may go back further in Indian style and it ma6y be simply co incidental. Non the less Chinese pistol grip hilts were common during the period and as a note to the margin of this interesting design. Attached Images Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 18th July 2016 at 12:30 PM.

19th July 2016, 03:33 AM	#5
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	It occurred to me to consider the Turkic influence and to address the very pertinent questions earlier in this thread as to the major design fashion/highlight of the project sword at the throat illustrating how India absorbed both the Koftgari and Tunkou aspects but more importantly where its own source of such style is present. Bolstered blades are common to Indian style as are koftgari decorations at the throat. Chinese weapons were quite late in the 17th C...and of a reversed Tunkou style not common in Indian swords. The time scale of Turkic cross pollination of style seems to better fit the picture moreover Hindu and Buddhist decorative style seems to indicate a far earlier transition in Indian sword decoration. See the Tibetan form below. Common to Indian, Ottoman and Chinese hilt style are the birdheads or Parrot form hilts...Zoomorphic hilts developed as a consequence of artistic and cultural style thus pistol grip design cannot be attributed specific to either except that the timeline would indicate favouring the Ottoman influence going back to Turkic influence. The knuckle guard can be seen across India and neighboring regions including the Sri Lankan Kastane but also in mainline weapons such as Tulvar etc...On blade style it is noted that Indian Sosun Pata form derived from the Ottoman Yatagan. Thus having compared the weapon at 1 and its derivatives I conclude that this weapon probably originated in Turkic fashion spreading through Ottoman style into Indian via the influence of the Yatagan as well as additions from Indian home grown design. Although interesting the Chinese influence appears too late in proceedings and has the added hurdle of a Tunkou reversed in design placement on Chinese swords... To compare the way influence flowed from India to China and vice versa...see Thomas chens detail at http://thomaschen.freewebspace.com/photo2.html where he notes Quote" Chinese and Islamic sabers, owing to both having a common ancestor (the Turko-Mongol saber), and also due to mutual cross-pollination and interaction, have several common features" Unquote. Attached Images Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 19th July 2016 at 04:34 AM.

20th July 2016, 03:14 AM	#6
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	Having said all that... I am acutely aware of similar form and style seeping into Afghanistan sword form...and have prepared a picture to support that below. Meanwhile your comments are invited on the discussion so far... Attached Images Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 20th July 2016 at 03:24 AM.

20th July 2016, 04:09 AM	#7
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	Forum Library Reference. In a separate development I also note for readers the following thread http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2411 which is from 2006 and examines Chirkas which is another close form ..