Indo-Persian sword with Wootz blade and parrot hilt

[Roland_M]

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

But since there is little doubt that is an Indian sword, why calling it "Indo-Persian" when Indian would do?!

""Indo-Persian culture" refers to those Persian aspects that have been integrated into or absorbed into the cultures of the Indian Subcontinent (hence the prefix "Indo"), and in particular, into North India, and modern-day Pakistan."

If someone calls a Persian shamshir with the typical downward curved Persian hilt "Indo-Persian" it's simply wrong.

As I mentioned before, Indians often copied the most successfull patterns from other countries.


Roland

[ariel]

In these 2 threads we have stumbled upon a yet undescribed pattern of a long-bladed slashing weapon. I would intuitively place it in North India, but may be wrong. It's age and name are unknown.

Sounds like a fertile area for research:-)))

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by ariel

In these 2 threads we have stumbled upon a yet undescribed pattern of a long-bladed slashing weapon. I would intuitively place it in North India, but may be wrong. It's age and name are unknown.

Sounds like a fertile area for research:-)))

I suggest along with Ariel that these two threads which are clearly the same family ...be joined. I note that the design treatment at the throat is similar to Yatagan although this may simply be coincidental since Khanda, Kard, Pesh Kabz and Yatagan are very close...in design style.
May the two threads be joined together?...

Below I place for comparison weaponry displaying similar work at the throat and some with similar hand guards to the project style...

[kai]

Hello Ibrahiim,

I note that the design treatment at the throat is similar to Yatagan although this may simply be coincidental since Khanda, Kard, Pesh Kabz and Yatagan are very close...in design style.

Below I place for comparison weaponry displaying similar work at the throat and some with similar hand guards to the project style...

None of this hilt type's parts are really unique - it's the really unusual combination which makes it so distinctive. Once you start looking at decorations, it's not surprising to see even more similarities in general style all across the continent and beyond. I don't think it really helps to compare koftgari to integral "tunkou" unless you dig into the details of any motifs to possibly establish any local origin; this would be really helpful though!

Regards,
Kai

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by Roland_M

If someone calls a Persian shamshir with the typical downward curved Persian hilt "Indo-Persian" it's simply wrong.

Roland, it is not "wrong" at all, you have your particular version of "Indo-Persian" but it is also used in other contexts. Dealers and collectors often use "Indo-Persian as a way to group together items from various cultures that are in close proximity to each other, the same way "European" cobbles together many different counties and regions. An "Indo-Persian" whatever is not much different than a "European" whatever. Umbrella terms help people find and locate items online, if a someone searches for "Indo-Persian" online it is much easier than searching for "Persian", "Indian", "Ottoman", "Sryrian" etc.

Indo-Persian is also the standard fall back when you do not know the specific origin of an item but you do know it from India, Persia, Syria, Ottoman etc.

[Roland_M]

Originally Posted by estcrh

Roland, it is not "wrong" at all, you have your particular version of "Indo-Persian" but it is also used in other contexts.

I was unsure about the meaning of this term, so I visited Wikipedia and the their definition seems reasonable. As you said, it seems that this term has more than one meaning. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Persian_culture

Roland

[mariusgmioc]

Originally Posted by Roland_M

I was unsure about the meaning of this term, so I visited Wikipedia and the their definition seems reasonable. As you said, it seems that this term has more than one meaning. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Persian_culture

Roland

True. But the problem comes from the term being mis-used.

And we are collectors of weapons, not etnographs to talk about the broader cultural influeces and about the "Inndo-Persian" culture. In our field, when somebody talks about a typical Indian Khanda and refers to it as being Indo-Persian is doing nothing but creating ambiguity.

I certainly understand calling Indo-Persian a Shamshir with an "Assadullah" blade and a Tulwar hilt, or a Pesh-kabz bearing the traits of both Persian and Indian workmanship, but as I said in my original posting, I think the use of the term is abused, for the sake of "political correctness"... or in other words, just to be on the safe side.

[Roland_M]

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

And we are collectors of weapons, not etnographs to talk about the broader cultural influeces and about the "Inndo-Persian" culture. In our field, when somebody talks about a typical Indian Khanda and refers to it as being Indo-Persian is doing nothing but creating ambiguity.

I hope, I don't understand you wrong, but swords and all other weapons are an integral part of culture.

A real Assadollah-Blade with a later added Tulwar hilt is clearly a Persian sword in my eyes.

I think there is a kind of border, where the meaning of such term becomes blurred.


Have a nice weekend

[mariusgmioc]

Originally Posted by Roland_M

I hope, I don't understand you wrong, but swords and all other weapons are an integral part of culture.

A real Assadollah-Blade with a later added Tulwar hilt is clearly a Persian sword in my eyes.

I think there is a kind of border, where the meaning of such term becomes blurred.

Have a nice weekend

Well, we can debate this at length but I think it is not the place at this thread, as here the discussion should remain focused on Kai's sword.

Maybe we can meet sometime this summer and debate it face to face drinking a beer.


Have a nice weekend too!

[ariel]

I think there is some degree of confusion here: tunkou has nothing to do with S. Indian bladed weapons. It is of a nomadic origin, and was found on Kirghiz sabers dating to VI-VIII centuries. From there it migrated both Eastward to China and Westward/Southward (Mongols, Seljuks) and that's how it reached Europe, Turkey and North India.
It was originally designed to isolate the edge of the blade from a contact with the scabbard and to prevent moisture from entering it. With time, it acquired purely decorative overtones.

Retaining plates on S. Indian katars, patas and khandas were a device aimed at attaching the blade to the handle.

I do not think there is anything in common between the long-bladed shashka-like ( sorry for the term, but you know what I mean) weapons and bichwa, that is a short-bladed dagger deriving from a humble cowhorn with a big hole.

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

And we are collectors of weapons, not etnographs to talk about the broader cultural influeces and about the "Inndo-Persian" culture.

Hello Marius,

one remark still let me make, I think that a "good" collector is every time also a little bit an ethnographer since you never will gain a deeper understanding about your toys without being this.

Best regards,
Detlef

[mariusgmioc]

Originally Posted by Sajen

Hello Marius,

one remark still let me make, I think that a "good" collector is every time also a little bit an ethnographer since you never will gain a deeper understanding about your toys without being this.

Best regards,
Detlef

Hard to argue with this one!

Have a nice weekend!

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

The simple process of fusing together two threads dealing with an identical form is requested so that the entire process can be correctly focused upon...without duplication and without confusion... They are of the same subject...the same sword family and .... on the same Forum. Bringing them together allows Forum to treat the subject as a single conundrum ...not two.

Therefor logically ...May the two be joined ?

Ibrahiim al Balooshi.