Indo-Persian sword with Wootz blade and parrot hilt

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by kronckew

the hilt reminds me of mine: appears to have a trade blade & was discussed on this forum as possibly so. indian tho nrth was also mentioned. this thread opens more possibilities.

The weapon you show is clearly the same style...same family as that being discussed...

[mariusgmioc]

Upon further consideration, I came to the conclusion that it shows the characteristics of a Deccan Bichwa... jut a bigger one.

So I would tend to lean towards Deccan origin.

But since there is little doubt that is an Indian sword, why calling it "Indo-Persian" when Indian would do?!

I noticed it has somehow became a fad calling all Indian or Persian weapons "Indo-Persian" even when is as clear as daylight they are either Indian or Persian.

[Roland_M]

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

But since there is little doubt that is an Indian sword, why calling it "Indo-Persian" when Indian would do?!

""Indo-Persian culture" refers to those Persian aspects that have been integrated into or absorbed into the cultures of the Indian Subcontinent (hence the prefix "Indo"), and in particular, into North India, and modern-day Pakistan."

If someone calls a Persian shamshir with the typical downward curved Persian hilt "Indo-Persian" it's simply wrong.

As I mentioned before, Indians often copied the most successfull patterns from other countries.


Roland

[ariel]

In these 2 threads we have stumbled upon a yet undescribed pattern of a long-bladed slashing weapon. I would intuitively place it in North India, but may be wrong. It's age and name are unknown.

Sounds like a fertile area for research:-)))

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by ariel

In these 2 threads we have stumbled upon a yet undescribed pattern of a long-bladed slashing weapon. I would intuitively place it in North India, but may be wrong. It's age and name are unknown.

Sounds like a fertile area for research:-)))

I suggest along with Ariel that these two threads which are clearly the same family ...be joined. I note that the design treatment at the throat is similar to Yatagan although this may simply be coincidental since Khanda, Kard, Pesh Kabz and Yatagan are very close...in design style.
May the two threads be joined together?...

Below I place for comparison weaponry displaying similar work at the throat and some with similar hand guards to the project style...

[kai]

Hello Ibrahiim,

I note that the design treatment at the throat is similar to Yatagan although this may simply be coincidental since Khanda, Kard, Pesh Kabz and Yatagan are very close...in design style.

Below I place for comparison weaponry displaying similar work at the throat and some with similar hand guards to the project style...

None of this hilt type's parts are really unique - it's the really unusual combination which makes it so distinctive. Once you start looking at decorations, it's not surprising to see even more similarities in general style all across the continent and beyond. I don't think it really helps to compare koftgari to integral "tunkou" unless you dig into the details of any motifs to possibly establish any local origin; this would be really helpful though!

Regards,
Kai

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by Roland_M

If someone calls a Persian shamshir with the typical downward curved Persian hilt "Indo-Persian" it's simply wrong.

Roland, it is not "wrong" at all, you have your particular version of "Indo-Persian" but it is also used in other contexts. Dealers and collectors often use "Indo-Persian as a way to group together items from various cultures that are in close proximity to each other, the same way "European" cobbles together many different counties and regions. An "Indo-Persian" whatever is not much different than a "European" whatever. Umbrella terms help people find and locate items online, if a someone searches for "Indo-Persian" online it is much easier than searching for "Persian", "Indian", "Ottoman", "Sryrian" etc.

Indo-Persian is also the standard fall back when you do not know the specific origin of an item but you do know it from India, Persia, Syria, Ottoman etc.

[Roland_M]

Originally Posted by estcrh

Roland, it is not "wrong" at all, you have your particular version of "Indo-Persian" but it is also used in other contexts.

I was unsure about the meaning of this term, so I visited Wikipedia and the their definition seems reasonable. As you said, it seems that this term has more than one meaning. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Persian_culture

Roland

[mariusgmioc]

Originally Posted by Roland_M

I was unsure about the meaning of this term, so I visited Wikipedia and the their definition seems reasonable. As you said, it seems that this term has more than one meaning. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Persian_culture

Roland

True. But the problem comes from the term being mis-used.

And we are collectors of weapons, not etnographs to talk about the broader cultural influeces and about the "Inndo-Persian" culture. In our field, when somebody talks about a typical Indian Khanda and refers to it as being Indo-Persian is doing nothing but creating ambiguity.

I certainly understand calling Indo-Persian a Shamshir with an "Assadullah" blade and a Tulwar hilt, or a Pesh-kabz bearing the traits of both Persian and Indian workmanship, but as I said in my original posting, I think the use of the term is abused, for the sake of "political correctness"... or in other words, just to be on the safe side.

[Roland_M]

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

And we are collectors of weapons, not etnographs to talk about the broader cultural influeces and about the "Inndo-Persian" culture. In our field, when somebody talks about a typical Indian Khanda and refers to it as being Indo-Persian is doing nothing but creating ambiguity.

I hope, I don't understand you wrong, but swords and all other weapons are an integral part of culture.

A real Assadollah-Blade with a later added Tulwar hilt is clearly a Persian sword in my eyes.

I think there is a kind of border, where the meaning of such term becomes blurred.


Have a nice weekend

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

And we are collectors of weapons, not etnographs to talk about the broader cultural influeces and about the "Inndo-Persian" culture.

Hello Marius,

one remark still let me make, I think that a "good" collector is every time also a little bit an ethnographer since you never will gain a deeper understanding about your toys without being this.

Best regards,
Detlef

[kai]

Hello Marius,

Upon further consideration, I came to the conclusion that it shows the characteristics of a Deccan Bichwa... jut a bigger one.

So I would tend to lean towards Deccan origin.

Can you elaborate and show pics to clarify, please?

But since there is little doubt that is an Indian sword, why calling it "Indo-Persian" when Indian would do?!

I fully agree and can relate to your pain.

Note that I started this thread 11 years ago and I guess this was a pre-emptive attempt to weasel out in case my attribution would got challenged by specialists...

I'd love a mod to change the title to "Indian ..." for better reference and searching, pretty please!

Regards,
Kai

[mariusgmioc]

Originally Posted by kai

Hello Marius,

Can you elaborate and show pics to clarify, please?

Kai

Hello Kai,

Please just Google images of "bichwa dagger" and I'm sure you'll find some examples very similar to your sword.

Also keep in mind that normal Bichwa si much smaller and designed mainly for reverse grip stabbing, hence the symetrical armatures fixing the blade to the hilt. However, your sword is too big to be used in the reverse grip, and since it has to be used with forward grip and also for slashing, it needs to have the armatures enforced towards the spine of the blade (like the ottoman Yataghans).

But just keep it in mind that this is just a hunch and by no means an irrefutable fact. Yet, it may give us a good direction for further enquiry.

Regards,

Marius