Indian pseudoshashka

ariel · 13th July 2016, 02:56 AM

How funny: the same pattern is discussed here

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...d=1#post203006

Perhaps, merging the threads might be in order?

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 13th July 2016, 08:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

How funny: the same pattern is discussed here

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...d=1#post203006

Perhaps, merging the threads might be in order?

I agree Ariel... These are surely the same form....or am I losing the plot??

kai · 15th July 2016, 02:22 AM

Hello Ariel,

Thanks for bringing these up! Did you won the first example?

I agree that the hilt of both sabres seem to be of the same type and possibly related to the hilt type in the other thread. A probable third example got posted there and I'm attaching it below for reference (with the brass fittings and apparently different workmanship it may be more recent).

Do the blades and the single scabbard allow any attribution? Any feature that doesn't fit with a Deccani origin?

All hilts are fastened with 3 rivets and seem to be of full tang construction. It is interesting that the first example seems to represent a bird's head while the third is much more abstract and the second one seems to approach the more bulbous pommel style. The langet-like feature seems to be separate from the bolster+guard in the first example.

I'm not sure that merging both threads is going to help our ongoing discussion; especially, since we haven't yet established that these really share the same origin. The cross-referencing should do for directing attention to the possibly related threads, I guess.

Regards,
Kai

kai · 15th July 2016, 02:47 AM

Hello Ariel,

The inversed-tunkou(-like) feature of yataghans as well as the tunkou of East Asian blades will both originate from the langet-like construction utilised to secure South Indian blades. In the swords discussed here and in the companion thread, this feature is very similar to yataghan, indeed. If this isn't a surviving older Indian or central Asian element and really a Turk influence, would the time line make an Ottoman-Deccani or a Turk-"Afghan" cultural transfer more likely?

Regards,
Kai

ariel · 15th July 2016, 11:45 PM

I have already expressed my opinion on that on the "other" thread.
Again, IMHO, the "tunkou" has nothing to do with the S.Indian technique of attaching the blade to the handle.
Was the "tunkou" brought by the ancient nomads through their successors ( Babur in India, for example, Seljuks in Iran and Turkey) or later on by the Ottoman influences, I do not know for now, and this is an immensely important question.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 16th July 2016, 08:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

I have already expressed my opinion on that on the "other" thread.
Again, IMHO, the "tunkou" has nothing to do with the S.Indian technique of attaching the blade to the handle.
Was the "tunkou" brought by the ancient nomads through their successors ( Babur in India, for example, Seljuks in Iran and Turkey) or later on by the Ottoman influences, I do not know for now, and this is an immensely important question.

Salaams Ariel, I continue to suggest that the two threads be amalgamated...My questions are; from where does this blade style including the decoration at the throat originate and in fact what is the name of this weapon and where is it from? The use of the term Tunkou is as you say not Indian however, we may not need to get hung up on that as it is only a term which I have used rather cross pollinated from another countries form...I think we just mean the design at the throat ...but one never can tell!

In the case of this sword which I think could be a hybrid or even formed of different regional weapons and possibly a European blade we know very little of its origins but influence seems to be broad based including Pesh Kabz, Kard, Patta, and several others regarding throat decoration and from a lot of weapons with the peculiar hand guard including even Sri Lankan Kastane.... It may be nothing to do with the Yatagan or Shashka. It is for this reason...in wanting to focus on its origin that I have asked for a joining of the threads...so that the full weight of Forum can be brought to bare on this problem.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 17th July 2016, 12:52 PM

I find a small reference to the Chinese potential nature of such weapons... Quote "
Kouming Dao

* Ho & Bronson 2004 p111
"... the [Qianlong] emperor appears to have been quite fond of non-traditional curved sabers of the Indian and Middle Eastern type, often furnished with jade hilts carved in the Indian Mughal style. Some were imitations made in the imperial armory in Beijing."

* Ho & Bronson 2004 p114 f127
"Qianlong ordered a total of sixty ceremonial curved swords on five occasions, in 1748, 1757, 1779, 1793, and 1795. Each sword was named and numbered, and all were identical in length, weight, and basic design. The scabbards were made either of red or green stingray skin and or patterned bark. The swords differed in terms of their inlaid details and the style of the hilts. Hilts made after completion of the 1757 batch were mostly in Mughal style, often with gold and inlaid gems."Unquote.

I can find not much in the way of pictures but I saw a good parrot or bird head pommel dagger in the Mughal style and place here below for reference...Regarding the Chinese connection it is interesting that a sister Chinese sword has the bolstering at the throat but reversed...more on that later...

I think it wise enough ...to consider the bolstered throat rather than just the decorative often koftgari technique in comparing the weapon and that this is where the direction of research seems to point...even though the decorative similarities may be compelling. I place some decorative reference and some knuckle guard comparison etc below...in addition. In adding the peculiar s bend blade inh an Indian style of ceremonial sword I do so to illustrate bolstering and note that many Indian weapons have something similar in their design. I say this to caution against too much emphasis on comparison to the Yatagan...although they may be related ...so may be many others.

15th July 2016, 02:22 AM	#3
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,255	Hello Ariel, Thanks for bringing these up! Did you won the first example? I agree that the hilt of both sabres seem to be of the same type and possibly related to the hilt type in the other thread. A probable third example got posted there and I'm attaching it below for reference (with the brass fittings and apparently different workmanship it may be more recent). Do the blades and the single scabbard allow any attribution? Any feature that doesn't fit with a Deccani origin? All hilts are fastened with 3 rivets and seem to be of full tang construction. It is interesting that the first example seems to represent a bird's head while the third is much more abstract and the second one seems to approach the more bulbous pommel style. The langet-like feature seems to be separate from the bolster+guard in the first example. I'm not sure that merging both threads is going to help our ongoing discussion; especially, since we haven't yet established that these really share the same origin. The cross-referencing should do for directing attention to the possibly related threads, I guess. Regards, Kai Attached Images

17th July 2016, 12:52 PM	#7
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	I find a small reference to the Chinese potential nature of such weapons... Quote " Kouming Dao * Ho & Bronson 2004 p111 "... the [Qianlong] emperor appears to have been quite fond of non-traditional curved sabers of the Indian and Middle Eastern type, often furnished with jade hilts carved in the Indian Mughal style. Some were imitations made in the imperial armory in Beijing." * Ho & Bronson 2004 p114 f127 "Qianlong ordered a total of sixty ceremonial curved swords on five occasions, in 1748, 1757, 1779, 1793, and 1795. Each sword was named and numbered, and all were identical in length, weight, and basic design. The scabbards were made either of red or green stingray skin and or patterned bark. The swords differed in terms of their inlaid details and the style of the hilts. Hilts made after completion of the 1757 batch were mostly in Mughal style, often with gold and inlaid gems."Unquote. I can find not much in the way of pictures but I saw a good parrot or bird head pommel dagger in the Mughal style and place here below for reference...Regarding the Chinese connection it is interesting that a sister Chinese sword has the bolstering at the throat but reversed...more on that later... I think it wise enough ...to consider the bolstered throat rather than just the decorative often koftgari technique in comparing the weapon and that this is where the direction of research seems to point...even though the decorative similarities may be compelling. I place some decorative reference and some knuckle guard comparison etc below...in addition. In adding the peculiar s bend blade inh an Indian style of ceremonial sword I do so to illustrate bolstering and note that many Indian weapons have something similar in their design. I say this to caution against too much emphasis on comparison to the Yatagan...although they may be related ...so may be many others. Attached Images Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 17th July 2016 at 01:28 PM.

13th July 2016, 02:56 AM	#1
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	How funny: the same pattern is discussed here http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...d=1#post203006 Perhaps, merging the threads might be in order?

15th July 2016, 02:47 AM	#4
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,255	Hello Ariel, The inversed-tunkou(-like) feature of yataghans as well as the tunkou of East Asian blades will both originate from the langet-like construction utilised to secure South Indian blades. In the swords discussed here and in the companion thread, this feature is very similar to yataghan, indeed. If this isn't a surviving older Indian or central Asian element and really a Turk influence, would the time line make an Ottoman-Deccani or a Turk-"Afghan" cultural transfer more likely? Regards, Kai

15th July 2016, 11:45 PM	#5
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	I have already expressed my opinion on that on the "other" thread. Again, IMHO, the "tunkou" has nothing to do with the S.Indian technique of attaching the blade to the handle. Was the "tunkou" brought by the ancient nomads through their successors ( Babur in India, for example, Seljuks in Iran and Turkey) or later on by the Ottoman influences, I do not know for now, and this is an immensely important question.