Mr. Oakeshott's Sword

Reventlov · 8th July 2016, 10:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cornelistromp

the earliest certain representation of a side ring on the quillons in art are on an engraving of Daniel Hopfer, maybe a type of grosses messer, believed to be Konrad von der Rosen. 1515

fe see a sword in the painting of St Paul by Pier Francesco Sacchi 1523, it is clear to see that the side rings are still open.

Very interesting, both of these artworks are new to me... thanks for sharing!

Reventlov · 9th July 2016, 12:15 PM

I remembered another possible appearance of a side ring in a drawing by Hans Holbein, c. 1521. Here the ring seems to appear on a different type of hilt from the other examples so far - I've included a photo of a hilt from Hermann Historica which I think is similar to what is shown.

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/F...he_Younger.jpg

Also here is a somewhat mysterious sword with a side-ring in the Hermitage. The museum dates it to 1400-50, but it's not clear what that is based on... a pommel could have been helpful for dating, but I'd still be inclined to a somewhat later dating. No information on provenance on the website, but it probably came to the museum via the Tsarskoye Selo Arsenal in 1919.

http://www.hermitagemuseum.org/wps/p...661316/?lng=en

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 11th July 2016, 03:54 AM

I had puzzled over side rings and found this useful video which explains it very well Please see https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jfQmVQIgwa4 and below I add for interest...others.

Develop your own swordmine...at https://www.pinterest.com/search/pins/?q=ring%20hilt%20swords&rs=typed&0=ring|typed&1=hi lt|typed&2=swords|typed

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 11th July 2016, 06:23 AM

That's not a Hilt... This is a Hilt!!!

kronckew · 11th July 2016, 10:20 AM

side rings? THIS is a ring: recent munitions grade german side sword based in a late 16c design. (i gotta clean off that black stuff)

no fancy schmancy frills and superfluous extra rings on the palm side. finger ring for mingering per the video. note longer 'upper guard branch and curved lower branch to further protect your hand.

Jim McDougall · 11th July 2016, 04:28 PM

Yikes!!!
This is getting to the "....now THIS is a knife" !!! syndrome

-Croc Dundee

Excellent entries, discussion and fantastic images. Interesting to see how these side rings developed along with fighting techniques, and how more complex hilts evolved (i.e, rapiers and baskets).

Great hilt there Ibrahiim!! and again thank you for the art and images.

Jasper, thank you for the insight into development of these rings, and I concur as well.

Ed · 11th July 2016, 05:05 PM

If in early post medieval Europe, a certain thing or object was common enough to become "popularized" in manuscripts, for how many years had these objects in question been circulating?

The point is that appearance in a manuscript (or in art generally) is nothing more than a terminus ante quem and might well be associated with something that had been in existence for many years prior.

fernando · 11th July 2016, 05:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ed

If in early post medieval Europe, a certain thing or object was common enough to become "popularized" in manuscripts, for how many years had these objects in question been circulating?

The point is that appearance in a manuscript (or in art generally) is nothing more than a terminus ante quem and might well be associated with something that had been in existence for many years prior.

Meaning that, the swords depicted by Vasco Gonçalo (circa 1450) in the panels of São Vicente de Fora, being consistent enough to represent real swords, could be examples of models already used in earlier times ?

.

9th July 2016, 12:15 PM	#2
Reventlov Member Join Date: Mar 2016 Posts: 138	I remembered another possible appearance of a side ring in a drawing by Hans Holbein, c. 1521. Here the ring seems to appear on a different type of hilt from the other examples so far - I've included a photo of a hilt from Hermann Historica which I think is similar to what is shown. https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/F...he_Younger.jpg Also here is a somewhat mysterious sword with a side-ring in the Hermitage. The museum dates it to 1400-50, but it's not clear what that is based on... a pommel could have been helpful for dating, but I'd still be inclined to a somewhat later dating. No information on provenance on the website, but it probably came to the museum via the Tsarskoye Selo Arsenal in 1919. http://www.hermitagemuseum.org/wps/p...661316/?lng=en Attached Images

11th July 2016, 03:54 AM	#3
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	I had puzzled over side rings and found this useful video which explains it very well Please see https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jfQmVQIgwa4 and below I add for interest...others. Develop your own swordmine...at https://www.pinterest.com/search/pins/?q=ring%20hilt%20swords&rs=typed&0=ring\|typed&1=hi lt\|typed&2=swords\|typed Attached Images Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 11th July 2016 at 06:27 AM.

11th July 2016, 06:23 AM	#4
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	That's not a Hilt... This is a Hilt!!! Attached Images

11th July 2016, 10:20 AM	#5
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,216	side rings? THIS is a ring: recent munitions grade german side sword based in a late 16c design. (i gotta clean off that black stuff) no fancy schmancy frills and superfluous extra rings on the palm side. finger ring for mingering per the video. note longer 'upper guard branch and curved lower branch to further protect your hand. Attached Images

11th July 2016, 04:28 PM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,196	Yikes!!! This is getting to the "....now THIS is a knife" !!! syndrome -Croc Dundee Excellent entries, discussion and fantastic images. Interesting to see how these side rings developed along with fighting techniques, and how more complex hilts evolved (i.e, rapiers and baskets). Great hilt there Ibrahiim!! and again thank you for the art and images. Jasper, thank you for the insight into development of these rings, and I concur as well.

11th July 2016, 05:05 PM	#7
Ed Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 256	If in early post medieval Europe, a certain thing or object was common enough to become "popularized" in manuscripts, for how many years had these objects in question been circulating? The point is that appearance in a manuscript (or in art generally) is nothing more than a terminus ante quem and might well be associated with something that had been in existence for many years prior.