Early Ottoman/Eastern European Sabre for Comment

[Jim McDougall]

Not disagreeing, but just curious.
While the scabbard is certainly not the defining factor in identification or assessment of a sword, aren't these 'baldric' type mounts mindful of the Arabian sa'if noted as Hahdramauti by Elgood? as well as what seems like the aghrab in the scabbard throat mount. These mounts were noted to have been produced in Hyderabad in India, and there seem to have been profound connections over considerable time.

If I have understood correctly, earlier blades are much stouter as with this one, and certainly the 'sickle' marks suggest Styria, of the key suppliers to Eastern Europe. Interestingly, Ostrowski ("The Polish Sabre") it seems notes the chevron style motif on grips to karabela examples (I think Lvov, but cant recall for sure).

The linear motif using smaller 'sickle' (hogs back) arcs seems to have occurred in some cases on swords in India, and via unclear associations appear on certain Caucasian blades (Ataghi?). I have seen these on some Khevsur pranguli. I have always considered influences from India may have been reflected in the Caucusus in degree.

Is it possible this might be something produced in India, perhaps for Arabia (regions under Ottoman influence) and recalling Eastern European hilt style ? According to Elgood, the Arabs did highly regard Hungarian blades and swords.

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Not disagreeing, but just curious.
While the scabbard is certainly not the defining factor in identification or assessment of a sword, aren't these 'baldric' type mounts mindful of the Arabian sa'if noted as Hahdramauti by Elgood? as well as what seems like the aghrab in the scabbard throat mount. These mounts were noted to have been produced in Hyderabad in India, and there seem to have been profound connections over considerable time.

If I have understood correctly, earlier blades are much stouter as with this one, and certainly the 'sickle' marks suggest Styria, of the key suppliers to Eastern Europe. Interestingly, Ostrowski ("The Polish Sabre") it seems notes the chevron style motif on grips to karabela examples (I think Lvov, but cant recall for sure).

The linear motif using smaller 'sickle' (hogs back) arcs seems to have occurred in some cases on swords in India, and via unclear associations appear on certain Caucasian blades (Ataghi?). I have seen these on some Khevsur pranguli. I have always considered influences from India may have been reflected in the Caucusus in degree.

Is it possible this might be something produced in India, perhaps for Arabia (regions under Ottoman influence) and recalling Eastern European hilt style ? According to Elgood, the Arabs did highly regard Hungarian blades and swords.

Jim,

An interesting breakdown.

I have seen similar sword types, in so far as form rather than specific detail, in Yemeni circles too.

Gavin

[TVV]

Gentlemen, thank you for the responses. Exploring a Southern Yemen connection is interesting. The placement of the scabbard rings do indeed suggest it was worn on a baldric, and since the three leaf motif on the scabbard matches the guard, I suspect this was the original scabbard. I personally am not sure I see an aghrab, but I will post a better picture of the scabbard mouth.

The hilt is probably the key feature to determine where this sword was used within the Ottoman Empire. I am posting some pictures of similar hilts. One is from Top Kapi and shows a sword with an Ottoman blade (the one at the top). The other one is of a much finer sword from the Bayern Ingolstadt Museum with a hilt and cross guard of similar form, again with an Ottoman blade. Not sure if it is part of the Turkenbeute from the Second Siege of Vienna or not.

Sincerely,
Teodor

[Jim McDougall]

Teodor,
The aghrab is a highly stylized element, in the case of the Hadhramauti (Yemen) saifs placed at the base of the langet receiver at the scabbard throat. Personally I cannot say whether or not this decorative element constitutes an 'aghrab' on your sabre, but it aligns with examples which have been described as such.
Whatever the case, this is a remarkably handsome sword, and most intriguing with its confluence of such a number of influences. I especially like the chevron motif on the grips, again recalling Polish karabela.
While it appears rosettes are missing on the grip, the remaining one to me only adds to the mystique of this sword as it shows what the hilt would have displayed at one time. These again, if not mistaken, recall the rosettes on Eastern European karabela.....I do not have the Ostrowski article with me, but that would probably show examples.

[estcrh]

I have looked around and have not found another sword and scabbard that match this one, the closest one is this Ottoman sword which also has a walrus ivory hilt.

Lot Description
AN OTTOMAN CHILD'S SWORD
SIGNED DAWUD, OTTOMAN TURKEY, 17TH CENTURY
The short curved blade with single-edged upper section and widened point with double-edge, gold overlay outlined gutter, small gold signature cartouche to one side, geometric lattice on side of forte, stained walrus-ivory hilt decorated with inset diamond botehs and gold inset stellar motifs with green enamelled centres, gold cross- guard and scabbard fittings engraved and nielloed on both sides with fine floral scrolls, inset turquoises on the end of the pommel and the quillons, scabbard of green velvet decorated with silver wire floral motifs with attached cultured pearls, engraved gold belt rings with attached string with glass beads, later replaced inset hardstones to the hilt and top of the scabbard, good condition
23in. (58.5cm.) long

The mounts on this elegant sword are decorated in nielloed silver in a style fashionable during the seventeenth century. A number of similarly decorated published pieces are stamped with a tughra of Mehmed IV (r. 1648-87) and some exist in European collections, having been taken as war booty from the Ottomans after the siege of Vienna in 1683. The pieces decorated in this style and stamped with Mehmed IV's tughra include two horse caparisons, daggers and spears (Bashir Mohamed, The Arts of the Muslim Knight. The Furusiyya Art Foundation Collection, Milan, 2007, no. 35, p.71). A number of examples which do not bear a tughra, but which can be dated with some accuracy on the basis of their dates of acquisition, are illustrated in Holger Schuckelt, Die Türckische Cammer. Sammlung orientalischer Kunst in der kurfürstlich-sächsischen Rüstkammer Dresden, exhibition catalogue, Dresden, 2010, no.254, p.249.

[TVV]

Jim, thank you for your input. As usual, your vast knowledge allows you to see similarities with swords from Poland to Yemen to even India. I agree that there seem to be a lot of features, common with Eastern and Central European swords, starting with the blade and even in the hilt. Not at all surprising considering the history of warfare between the Ottomans, Habsburgs, the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth and their various allies, as well as where this sword was found and currently resides.

Estrch, thank you for posting this example, which while not a perfect fit, seems to be very similar, almost like a very luxurious version of the subject sword. If you look past the gold and the precious stones, the hilt and the scabbard appear to be of very similar form, down to the rings where the baldric is attached. Apart from the Ottoman attribution, is there any additional information about this sword?

Teodor

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by TVV

Estrch, thank you for posting this example, which while not a perfect fit, seems to be very similar, almost like a very luxurious version of the subject sword. If you look past the gold and the precious stones, the hilt and the scabbard appear to be of very similar form, down to the rings where the baldric is attached. Apart from the Ottoman attribution, is there any additional information about this sword?

Teodor

Teodor, look up, I added the info to my post.