Mr. Oakeshott's Sword

Ed · 4th July 2016, 12:42 PM

Here are a couple more. I can take it down and get the others that you'd like later.

There was some discussion about the Pommel being a weight originally. I sorta doubt that.

If you have Oakeschott's books that I referenced, his description is quite good.

ulfberth · 4th July 2016, 05:34 PM

Hi Ed,

The thickness at the beginning of the blade looks a bit unusual for the period, I never seen it before, perhaps other forum members have.
The carvings in the crossguard endings look odd to, perhaps its the picture that is not clear enough, or is the sword covered in varnish ?

kind regards

Ulfberth

Jim McDougall · 4th July 2016, 10:17 PM

This sword is pretty exciting to me, its inherent character alone of course important, but the fact it was one of Mr. Oakeshott's takes it to another level.
On the blade, from what I can find in the Oakeshott refrences, it seems that the built up or incipient ricasso was relatively rare at blade shoulders . While a degree of frequency in this type (XVIIIa) in the 15th c, by the latter part these were remarkably well known, actually few without it ('Chivalry', p.69).

With the pommel, it is termed 'scent stopper' form (T3) and Oakshott notes (p.106) these seem predominantly English (c 1400-40) with this close ribbed fluting on the fundamentally 'pear' shape. It is stated these were less usual after 1430. Here I would suggest that the pommel seems in accord with the guard as homogenous as the striated quillon terminals, fluted pommel and striations on the guard seem en suite.

An interesting note is that while these pommels in this shape and style seem to be keenly English, but that the swords overall often seems to have other Italian characteristics.

As for the notion concerning the pommel as a weight......this is of course one of the commonly held purposes described in the general dynamics of the sword. However, while that seems logical in degree, in many cases there seem to have been other functions allotted to the pommel.....its decorative and aesthetic appeal notwithstanding. In many cases, the pommel was essentially a reliquary, holding religious relics or amulet oriented items.

Pommels seem to have often been exchanged in refurbishings over years or even detached and in cases they are said to have served as weights used with scales etc. Perhaps that might have lead to emphasis on the weight or counterbalance concept.
It seems that Italian arms had a distinct influence on the English arms of the period, as their armourers were broadly pacesetters for this in these times.
With that I might suggest that perhaps the side ring on the guard could be one of these Italianate features, as this appears on many of their swords of the periods noted.

The markings to me seem to resemble either halberds or some type of polearms, and possibly looking toward the esoterica of those marking, which seem to exceed the general corpus of sword makers marks might be useful. In discussion currently in place on halberds, it is noted markings of small halberds occur on one example.
Armourers seem to have been more of a brokerage of various types of arms which often included armor and in some cases even firearms.

Ed · 4th July 2016, 11:17 PM

It was not unusual for blades to be hilted or rehilted in countries far from their manufacture. I sold a two handed court sword whose blade was German and whose hilt was Italian but whose wrapping was Saxon. I'll post it at some point.

A mismatch between hilt and mountings isn't troublesome to me particularly. This sword looks to me as though it had not been taken apart but that could simply be a conceit on my part. I think that it probably is likely that it has undergone 2 or more incarnations.

It reminds me of a Turag bladed English pattern hilted sword that I posted here some time ago, remember that one Jim?

Jim McDougall · 5th July 2016, 12:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ed

It was not unusual for blades to be hilted or rehilted in countries far from their manufacture. I sold a two handed court sword whose blade was German and whose hilt was Italian but whose wrapping was Saxon. I'll post it at some point.

A mismatch between hilt and mountings isn't troublesome to me particularly. This sword looks to me as though it had not been taken apart but that could simply be a conceit on my part. I think that it probably is likely that it has undergone 2 or more incarnations.

It reminds me of a Turag bladed English pattern hilted sword that I posted here some time ago, remember that one Jim?

The old memory aint what it used to be Ed!!

but it does seem there is something like that in the cobwebs.

As you say, components could easily be assembled from widely divergent sources in the often long working lives of these swords. That is not to mention the efforts of industrious antiquarians and artisans of the 'Historismus' times and their 'creations'.
I would be inclined to think this one aside from its new grips is otherwise homogenous. The grips and turks heads, wrapped wire etc. of course seem much, much later.
I am by far no authority in this field, but from what I could find in the 'crash course' in Oakeshott, the components seem to be together from period.

Thanks Ed for sharing this!!! BTW, its great having you posting again!

Ed · 5th July 2016, 02:31 AM

This one.

About which YOU said

Quote:

Ed,
This is what appears to be a British officers sword hilt of the familiar four slot guard form, Revolutionary War period (see examples in "Swords & Blades of the American Revolution" Neumann). This particular hilt resembles the elusive M1788 heavy cavalry officers hilt, which remains only loosely identified as such, while the M1788 sabre for light cavalry is well known.
Since British military swords had not yet reached regulation in this period, there was often a considerable degree of license in adaptations of only relatively standard forms.

This would be a magnificent example except that from the photos seen of this sword elsewhere it is mounted with a completely incongruent Sudanese kaskara blade of the 19th century.
Still a beautiful example of these British hilts!
Best regards,
Jim

You know, I have read that Burton, in claiming that captured Crusader sword blades were still being used in the mid-east, mistook the sort of blade on this hilt for crusader weaponry.

Jim McDougall · 5th July 2016, 06:15 AM

Thanks Ed, quite a trip down memory lane! Was this back in 2008 or before?
While I cant see the blade very well, in recent years I have learned that there were European blades with these three central fullers on broadsword blades. There does seem to have been numbers of these blades produced in Solingen and exported to African and Red Sea ports, where these found their way into trade routes.

It does remain curious that a broadsword blade was mounted in one of these British cavalry hilts. I had one of these four slot hilts of this type I got from Flayderman back in the 70s which had a spherical pommel and a huge 40" backsword blade. Another I had from Denner had the curled bars in the hilt and a heavy sabre blade.
Whether these were 'remounts' or one off officers swords is anybodys guess.

Burton did use quotes from some of the 19th century adventure narrators such as Barth and Clapperton & Denham, who noted that the African swords had blades usually from Solingen, and "...preserves the knightly form of crusading days" ("Book of the Sword", p.162).
I think Burton et al, were aware of the blades being 'of the type', but not necessarily of that vintage.

We do know that we have found blades in Tuareg context which indeed were of medieval period, though these are quite rarely found in modern times.

Oakeshott, I think in his "Records of the Medieval Sword" (?) notes that there are numerous cases where souvenier kaskaras had their blades taken and remounted in spurious hilts to appear medieval.

I hadn't realized that we discussed this riding sword back in 2000!!!!
It was very nostalgic to see those names so long gone again.

4th July 2016, 12:42 PM	#1
Ed Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 279	Here are a couple more. I can take it down and get the others that you'd like later. There was some discussion about the Pommel being a weight originally. I sorta doubt that. If you have Oakeschott's books that I referenced, his description is quite good. Attached Images

4th July 2016, 05:34 PM	#2
ulfberth Member Join Date: Jul 2014 Posts: 435	Hi Ed, The thickness at the beginning of the blade looks a bit unusual for the period, I never seen it before, perhaps other forum members have. The carvings in the crossguard endings look odd to, perhaps its the picture that is not clear enough, or is the sword covered in varnish ? kind regards Ulfberth

4th July 2016, 10:17 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,601	This sword is pretty exciting to me, its inherent character alone of course important, but the fact it was one of Mr. Oakeshott's takes it to another level. On the blade, from what I can find in the Oakeshott refrences, it seems that the built up or incipient ricasso was relatively rare at blade shoulders . While a degree of frequency in this type (XVIIIa) in the 15th c, by the latter part these were remarkably well known, actually few without it ('Chivalry', p.69). With the pommel, it is termed 'scent stopper' form (T3) and Oakshott notes (p.106) these seem predominantly English (c 1400-40) with this close ribbed fluting on the fundamentally 'pear' shape. It is stated these were less usual after 1430. Here I would suggest that the pommel seems in accord with the guard as homogenous as the striated quillon terminals, fluted pommel and striations on the guard seem en suite. An interesting note is that while these pommels in this shape and style seem to be keenly English, but that the swords overall often seems to have other Italian characteristics. As for the notion concerning the pommel as a weight......this is of course one of the commonly held purposes described in the general dynamics of the sword. However, while that seems logical in degree, in many cases there seem to have been other functions allotted to the pommel.....its decorative and aesthetic appeal notwithstanding. In many cases, the pommel was essentially a reliquary, holding religious relics or amulet oriented items. Pommels seem to have often been exchanged in refurbishings over years or even detached and in cases they are said to have served as weights used with scales etc. Perhaps that might have lead to emphasis on the weight or counterbalance concept. It seems that Italian arms had a distinct influence on the English arms of the period, as their armourers were broadly pacesetters for this in these times. With that I might suggest that perhaps the side ring on the guard could be one of these Italianate features, as this appears on many of their swords of the periods noted. The markings to me seem to resemble either halberds or some type of polearms, and possibly looking toward the esoterica of those marking, which seem to exceed the general corpus of sword makers marks might be useful. In discussion currently in place on halberds, it is noted markings of small halberds occur on one example. Armourers seem to have been more of a brokerage of various types of arms which often included armor and in some cases even firearms.

4th July 2016, 11:17 PM	#4
Ed Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 279	It was not unusual for blades to be hilted or rehilted in countries far from their manufacture. I sold a two handed court sword whose blade was German and whose hilt was Italian but whose wrapping was Saxon. I'll post it at some point. A mismatch between hilt and mountings isn't troublesome to me particularly. This sword looks to me as though it had not been taken apart but that could simply be a conceit on my part. I think that it probably is likely that it has undergone 2 or more incarnations. It reminds me of a Turag bladed English pattern hilted sword that I posted here some time ago, remember that one Jim?

5th July 2016, 06:15 AM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,601	Thanks Ed, quite a trip down memory lane! Was this back in 2008 or before? While I cant see the blade very well, in recent years I have learned that there were European blades with these three central fullers on broadsword blades. There does seem to have been numbers of these blades produced in Solingen and exported to African and Red Sea ports, where these found their way into trade routes. It does remain curious that a broadsword blade was mounted in one of these British cavalry hilts. I had one of these four slot hilts of this type I got from Flayderman back in the 70s which had a spherical pommel and a huge 40" backsword blade. Another I had from Denner had the curled bars in the hilt and a heavy sabre blade. Whether these were 'remounts' or one off officers swords is anybodys guess. Burton did use quotes from some of the 19th century adventure narrators such as Barth and Clapperton & Denham, who noted that the African swords had blades usually from Solingen, and "...preserves the knightly form of crusading days" ("Book of the Sword", p.162). I think Burton et al, were aware of the blades being 'of the type', but not necessarily of that vintage. We do know that we have found blades in Tuareg context which indeed were of medieval period, though these are quite rarely found in modern times. Oakeshott, I think in his "Records of the Medieval Sword" (?) notes that there are numerous cases where souvenier kaskaras had their blades taken and remounted in spurious hilts to appear medieval. I hadn't realized that we discussed this riding sword back in 2000!!!! It was very nostalgic to see those names so long gone again.