16th century halberd; origin??

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by fernando

Allow me to show my surprise, Jim.
The differences between the marks of both examples are rather visible. While the one from the link has the unequivocal mark of Pankraz Taller, with its shape of a shield and X cross interior with dots, the mark of the one in discussion has the shape of a square and, instead of dots, has an extra line departing from the X cross center. I guess such details could not be result of bad striking and constitute differences that enable us to establish that the two marks belong to different smiths.
But then, i might be wrong and am ready to stand corrected.


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Not at all Fernando, actually you are entirely correct, the marks while 'similar' are different, however the gestalt and positioning of these marks are compellingly close in these cases.
I was unable to find marks of Taller in any of my resources on markings, and wondered if perhaps being a 'blacksmith' within the auspices of the armoury might have precluded the usual markings protocols associated with guilds etc in the broader scope of production.

Also, I was wondering if these variations in the 'X' inside either square or shield type cartouche might reflect changes or possibly subtle indicators having to do with production record keeping or the like. It seems that often markings of the same 'type' occur in odd or different configurations or combinations, such as seen with 'sickle marks' and others like the familiar 'kings heads'.

[Zauberflöte]

I'm impressed by your observations gentlemen, many thanks so far.

So Austrian origin (or German such as HH claims) is a safe bet?

Best.

F.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Zauberflöte

I'm impressed by your observations gentlemen, many thanks so far.

So Austrian origin (or German such as HH claims) is a safe bet?

Best.

F.

As once pointed out to me by a well respected arms author, weapons have few, if any, geographic boundaries. In most of the markings references I checked, halberd markings in many cases had double captions German/Austrian and of course Swiss fell into similar umbrella.
Naturally if the maker can be positively identified we can presume at least that part of the weapon can be attributed accordingly. Often components were exchanged across borders, as were refurbishings during working life.

A very nice halberd example in any case!

[CSinTX]

I didnt want to post until today and draw attention to an item the OP might be bidding on. See the auction from today June 29th, 2016, Thomas Del Mar, Lot 160 for a very similar example.

In my opinion, the style is so similar to the other known Styrian builds that they could easily be placed together.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

As once pointed out to me by a well respected arms author, weapons have few, if any, geographic boundaries. In most of the markings references I checked, halberd markings in many cases had double captions German/Austrian and of course Swiss fell into similar umbrella.
Naturally if the maker can be positively identified we can presume at least that part of the weapon can be attributed accordingly. Often components were exchanged across borders, as were refurbishings during working life.

A very nice halberd example in any case!

Thank you Jim, Whilst not perhaps 100% exact it is easy to suggest that these are the same makers mark... however, I am always ready to listen to other conclusions and have learned a lot already in tracing these weapons... a far cry from my usual haunts of Arabian and Indian weapons.

[Zauberflöte]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

As once pointed out to me by a well respected arms author, weapons have few, if any, geographic boundaries. In most of the markings references I checked, halberd markings in many cases had double captions German/Austrian and of course Swiss fell into similar umbrella.
Naturally if the maker can be positively identified we can presume at least that part of the weapon can be attributed accordingly. Often components were exchanged across borders, as were refurbishings during working life.

A very nice halberd example in any case!

Thank you!

[fernando]

Perhaps the only halberd typology claimed to be exclusive of one only region (Switzerland) is the "Sempach", due to its particular shape. It was so named after the battle of Sempach (1386). This early style resurged in the late XVI century and again in the late XVII century by commission to Lamprecht Koller, although specialists (George A. Snook) remind us that this 'late' version only resembles the original, contrary to general belief.
I am not sure where precisely my example falls, on what touches a date, even when i compare its maker's mark with a set quoted to be from the mid XV century.

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[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by fernando

Perhaps the only halberd typology claimed to be exclusive of one only region (Switzerland) is the "Sempach", due to its particular shape. It was so named after the battle of Sempach (1386). This early style resurged in the late XVI century and again in the late XVII century by commission to Lamprecht Koller, although specialists (George A. Snook) remind us that this 'late' version only resembles the original, contrary to general belief.
I am not sure where precisely my example falls, on what touches a date, even when i compare its maker's mark with a set quoted to be from the mid XV century.

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Fantastic bit of history and detail Fernando!!! For a history nut like me these tidbits are pure treasure, and the kind of key information I look for in footnotes etc. Often I have browsed through references just reading these kinds of data. Thank you for adding this.

In looking at these markings, they seem very much the 'mullet' type charges seen in heraldry, and on a number of sword blades these are among groupings of marks termed 'cogwheels' (Mann, 1962, Wallace Coll. ).

It is interesting that in cases, the markings from polearms such as halberds cross into the realm of sword blades, and I wonder if these kinds of marks sometimes occur in groupings as collective stamps placed by varied workers or vendors. It seems these blades on polearms were made by blacksmiths rather than swordsmiths (though the two often interceded) but possibly armourers, who were more arms 'brokers and others might account for marks appearing in groups.
Not necessarily relevant in this case I guess, but just curious.

[Reventlov]

Originally Posted by fernando

I am not sure where precisely my example falls, on what touches a date, even when i compare its maker's mark with a set quoted to be from the mid XV century.

Hi Fernando,
Thank you for sharing this item from your collection, I think it may be an intriguing piece one way or the other... It has some features that I tend to associate with some of the various 17th century models of "Sempach" halberds, but I cannot find a perfect match with any such halberd specifically, and the mark in particular might convince me of an earlier dating.

For my own interest I have been comparing halberds and maker's marks... A useful reference is the website of the Swiss National Museum; their online catalogue has been updated recently and now includes photos and details of more than 1,000 halberds - mostly "Sempach" halberds and others from the 17th century.

http://www.nationalmuseum.ch/sammlun...ID=53&numOf=30

I recognize several of the marks you have shared... The square mark with the diagonal bend and three dots belongs to a Jakob Ringier of Zofingen, d. 1586, according to the Swiss Museum. They have about a dozen examples, and I have found a few in other collections also. All are very similar in shape and style. I haven't yet found any other information about this smith.

http://www.nationalmuseum.ch/sammlun...&sID=&numOf=30

From what I have found so far, the five pointed star with open center and the eight(?) pointed star within a pentagon occur nearly exclusively on halberds with quite similar overall geometry as the Ringier halberds -the blade is always straight and slanting forward, the back-spike is of strongly triangular form. A few halberds with each of the three marks also share other decorative markings of similar style. The Swiss Museum has many examples of both marks on halberds that they date to 1540-60. In Hafted Weapons in Medieval and Renaissance Europe, John Waldman suggests a slightly earlier range of dates for comparable examples: 1520-40. Snook is the outlier, dating the type much earlier, to circa 1500 (Snook's fig. 10 seems to possibly be the exact same halberd in Waldman's fig. 69a).

[fernando]

Outstanding, Reventlov.
Thank you so much for the great input, links and excelent pictures.
I will keep the Swiss Museum links to my favorites and spend some time digesting all that material.
But say, when you compare Waldman's fig. 69a (a publication i have) with Snook's fig. 10 (?), are you sure about Snook's fig. number ... or does he have another work besides "The Halberd and Other Polearms of the Late Medieval Period" ?
By the way, my "Sempach" example was discussed HERE a few years ago.

[CSinTX]

Originally Posted by Reventlov

.. A useful reference is the website of the Swiss National Museum; their online catalogue has been updated recently

Thanks so much for posting these examples. Here is one I own that I posted a little while back. Your post and links provide a wealth of info.

Obviously made by the same craftsman as the examples you posted- http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=20210