AFRICAN???SWORD for ID and COMMENT

kahnjar1 · 23rd June 2016, 08:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iain

I'd lean towards 20th century locally made blade myself, it's subtle but the fullers and profile of the blade don't strike me as one of the older European trade blades. Just an opinion though based on photos.

I agree. As I stated in the original post, my feeling is locally forged. As to date again I agree likely 20th c sometime.
Stu

rickystl · 25th June 2016, 03:37 PM

Hi Stu.
As you know, I'm very much a novice when it comes to these blades. But I agree with you. The attractive feature is the scabbard and leather work. Looks like it took longer to make than the blade itself. Nice find.
Rick.

Kubur · 25th June 2016, 04:16 PM

Maybe it's time for me to introduce my Mandingo sword with a French blade end of 18th c.
As Professor Mc Douglas and I said your blade is probably older. Closer pictures would help.
Best,

Jim McDougall · 25th June 2016, 08:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kubur

Maybe it's time for me to introduce my Mandingo sword with a French blade end of 18th c.
As Professor Mc Douglas and I said your blade is probably older. Closer pictures would help.
Best,

'Professor McDouglas' !!! ???? Hey, I like that!!!

Very nice blade on your Manding sabre, indeed looks end of 18th French, with these type blades most common on these sabres.
On this West African sword in discussion, the grooves look remarkably uniform, and the reason I suggested 19th c. European is that in about that period there were a degree of 'blanks' out of Solingen into trade markets. At least that seems the case as the over inflated industrial sector struggled to keep up at end of Franco-Prussian war (1870).

The moons (dukari) were consistently on Hausa blades (masri) of the eastern Saharan into Sudanese regions. It seems that there were indeed 'kaskara' type blades on West African swords of Sierra Leone and others with cylindrical hilts, but hard to determine periods earlier than of course latter 19th c. These of course did not have the moons that were indicative of the 'masri' type blades (Rodd, 1928).

kahnjar1 · 25th June 2016, 09:47 PM

Thanks KUBUR for posting pics of your Mandinka sword......very nice piece. So mine would appear NOT to be Mandinka, as the only "similar" feature I can see is the pommel top.
As far as the blade on mine is concerned ....yes the fullers are really straight and consistent, which is not IMHO seen on locally forged blades.
As Professor Jim has mentioned, large quantities of European and English blades were shipped to the Middle East and Africa, and were no doubt mounted locally. This blade could well me one of those, but there is NO marking of any sort visible.
Anyway I think we can safely say that it comes from the Sub Sahara somewhere, maybe modern day Mali/Chad.
Stu

Kubur · 26th June 2016, 02:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

'Professor McDouglas' !!! ???? Hey, I like that!!!

Sorry for the misspell, Mc Dougall.

Iain · 26th June 2016, 05:12 PM

Oddly enough from the images the fullers are not inform to my eye and ground, not forged. All signs of later manufacture. But opinions will always differ.

Jim McDougall · 26th June 2016, 05:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kubur

Sorry for the misspell, Mc Dougall.

No problem Kubur. You oughta here the mispronunciations I get!!!

Jim McDougall · 26th June 2016, 06:09 PM

One thing about studying weapons, especially discussing them, is that in many cases views and perceptions can be revised as other data or observations will offer new and often better insights into the examination.

In the case of this blade, my initial observations suggested it may well be European, as it was without the familiar 'dukari' (moons) at terminus of outside grooves. The grooves did seem remarkably uniform, however, Iain, who has profoundly astute experience with these African blades, observes there are certain characteristics suggesting this may indeed be native made.

I think the regional attribution remains correct, as there is an overall and distinct similarity to the sabers of Mali, and the Manding people. I would note (as in my post #4) that there has been a long standing connection of course with Omani traders whose influences permeated these trade routes across the Sahara from the East African regions as far as Zanzibar.

In my view, these blockish pommels and the wrap rather than carved 'baluster' type handles are distinct indicators of such influence.
Are these not very much like those on Omani 'kattara' ?

The top image is of 'kattaras'
Second of a Manding sabre with European sabre blade
Third of course, native blade WITH the dukari

Again, these triple fuller blades occurred often on Sierra Leone swords used purportedly by slave traders with cylindrical hilts, these of course had no dukari and origin of blades unclear .

25th June 2016, 04:16 PM	#3
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	Maybe it's time for me to introduce my Mandingo sword with a French blade end of 18th c. As Professor Mc Douglas and I said your blade is probably older. Closer pictures would help. Best, Attached Images

26th June 2016, 06:09 PM	#9
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	One thing about studying weapons, especially discussing them, is that in many cases views and perceptions can be revised as other data or observations will offer new and often better insights into the examination. In the case of this blade, my initial observations suggested it may well be European, as it was without the familiar 'dukari' (moons) at terminus of outside grooves. The grooves did seem remarkably uniform, however, Iain, who has profoundly astute experience with these African blades, observes there are certain characteristics suggesting this may indeed be native made. I think the regional attribution remains correct, as there is an overall and distinct similarity to the sabers of Mali, and the Manding people. I would note (as in my post #4) that there has been a long standing connection of course with Omani traders whose influences permeated these trade routes across the Sahara from the East African regions as far as Zanzibar. In my view, these blockish pommels and the wrap rather than carved 'baluster' type handles are distinct indicators of such influence. Are these not very much like those on Omani 'kattara' ? The top image is of 'kattaras' Second of a Manding sabre with European sabre blade Third of course, native blade WITH the dukari Again, these triple fuller blades occurred often on Sierra Leone swords used purportedly by slave traders with cylindrical hilts, these of course had no dukari and origin of blades unclear . Attached Images Last edited by Jim McDougall; 26th June 2016 at 06:24 PM.

25th June 2016, 03:37 PM	#2
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,630	Hi Stu. As you know, I'm very much a novice when it comes to these blades. But I agree with you. The attractive feature is the scabbard and leather work. Looks like it took longer to make than the blade itself. Nice find. Rick.

25th June 2016, 09:47 PM	#5
kahnjar1 Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND Posts: 2,786	Thanks KUBUR for posting pics of your Mandinka sword......very nice piece. So mine would appear NOT to be Mandinka, as the only "similar" feature I can see is the pommel top. As far as the blade on mine is concerned ....yes the fullers are really straight and consistent, which is not IMHO seen on locally forged blades. As Professor Jim has mentioned, large quantities of European and English blades were shipped to the Middle East and Africa, and were no doubt mounted locally. This blade could well me one of those, but there is NO marking of any sort visible. Anyway I think we can safely say that it comes from the Sub Sahara somewhere, maybe modern day Mali/Chad. Stu

26th June 2016, 05:12 PM	#7
Iain Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Olomouc Posts: 1,708	Oddly enough from the images the fullers are not inform to my eye and ground, not forged. All signs of later manufacture. But opinions will always differ.