Ear dagger

Sajen · 20th June 2016, 09:07 AM

Here is one I have in my picture archive. I think that the one in question is an original antique piece and very nice!

Regards,
Detlef

ariel · 20th June 2016, 01:30 PM

The really old ones were orders of magnitude more elaborate and artistic.
The one in question IMHO is most likely early-mid 20 century. Except for some pitting it has no signs of age. Might have been kept un-oiled: corrosion sets fast.

Sajen · 20th June 2016, 01:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

The really old ones were orders of magnitude more elaborate and artistic.
The one in question IMHO is most likely early-mid 20 century. Except for some pitting it has no signs of age. Might have been kept un-oiled: corrosion sets fast.

Hello Ariel,

I am by far not an expert by this daggers but the attached ivory at the ears look very old to my eyes and not like 20 century ivory. And look at the piece in up from post #5 Roland has posted, this piece isn't as well not very elaborate and artistic but since it seems to be a museum piece clearly antique.

Regards,
Detlef

ariel · 20th June 2016, 03:14 PM

OK, let's date it to the 19th century:-)

Even then such dagger would be a replica.
The real ones were out of commission by the 16th century, but replicas were made all the time.
https://myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=22689

I am with Roland.

Timo Nieminen · 20th June 2016, 09:52 PM

When did acid-etching such as on this dagger start being used to decorate weapons like this?

Common in the 19th century for sure. I have 19th century blades with similar corrosion, so I think 19th century replica fits the appearance.

Jim McDougall · 21st June 2016, 12:58 AM

I have a hard time telling but if that motif is indeed acid etched, it would certainly seem to place into 19th c.
The cross in the shield while of course simplistic, seems to be an arsenal type mark of Vienna, which would account for its occurrence on polearms.
If it was some sort of guild associated mark, that would explain why it might be on a dagger blade. Daggers were of course personal, not issue type weapons, thus the arsenal suggestion for halberds.

According to Mann (Wallace Coll. pp.374-75) these 'ear' daggers are of early Spanish-Moresque design which reflect even earlier Eastern forms which include the 'Luristan' types and of course yataghan hilts.

These were produced in Italy, mostly Venice, in the 16th century+ and termed 'daga alla Levantina' or 'alla Stradiotta', often by 'Moorish' workers in Venice.
Typical arms interaction between Vienna and Venice would account for the diffusion of course to the north.

I would be inclined to regard this example as possibly 17th c. though would consider the etched design possibly later as noted, but not sure of the antiquity of this process,
As far as pitting and corrosive activity, it seems to me that this kind of light pitting is not unusual for very old weapons, and is commensurate with the static situation of the weapon and such circumstances. If it was on display or static for some time, dust and moisture absorption would be evident on the side most exposed.
Still, again depending on situations, any type of corrosion can accede rather quickly in cases.

corrado26 · 21st June 2016, 02:34 PM

I found this ear dagger in my foto archive with the equivalent description of the seller:
Magnificent 19th C. Spanish Ear Dagger in 15th C. Moorish style, Toledo work of Zuloaga type: A truly magnificent antique ear dagger. This example has a fine grip and is covered in silver and gold koftgari of very fine quality. A very beautiful dagger and almost impossible to find at all in any condition much less this quality. Dates to the 19th C. and likely composed by the finest toledo smiths in the classical spanish Moorish style typical of the finest Eusebio Zuloaga work. Overall length is 16", 10" blade, 2 3/4" from ear to ear.
corrado26

20th June 2016, 09:07 AM	#1
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 9,333	Here is one I have in my picture archive. I think that the one in question is an original antique piece and very nice! Regards, Detlef Attached Images

21st June 2016, 02:34 PM	#7
corrado26 Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Black Forest, Germany Posts: 1,239	I found this ear dagger in my foto archive with the equivalent description of the seller: Magnificent 19th C. Spanish Ear Dagger in 15th C. Moorish style, Toledo work of Zuloaga type: A truly magnificent antique ear dagger. This example has a fine grip and is covered in silver and gold koftgari of very fine quality. A very beautiful dagger and almost impossible to find at all in any condition much less this quality. Dates to the 19th C. and likely composed by the finest toledo smiths in the classical spanish Moorish style typical of the finest Eusebio Zuloaga work. Overall length is 16", 10" blade, 2 3/4" from ear to ear. corrado26 Attached Images

20th June 2016, 01:30 PM	#2
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	The really old ones were orders of magnitude more elaborate and artistic. The one in question IMHO is most likely early-mid 20 century. Except for some pitting it has no signs of age. Might have been kept un-oiled: corrosion sets fast.

20th June 2016, 03:14 PM	#4
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	OK, let's date it to the 19th century:-) Even then such dagger would be a replica. The real ones were out of commission by the 16th century, but replicas were made all the time. https://myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=22689 I am with Roland.

20th June 2016, 09:52 PM	#5
Timo Nieminen Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 422	When did acid-etching such as on this dagger start being used to decorate weapons like this? Common in the 19th century for sure. I have 19th century blades with similar corrosion, so I think 19th century replica fits the appearance.

21st June 2016, 12:58 AM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,585	I have a hard time telling but if that motif is indeed acid etched, it would certainly seem to place into 19th c. The cross in the shield while of course simplistic, seems to be an arsenal type mark of Vienna, which would account for its occurrence on polearms. If it was some sort of guild associated mark, that would explain why it might be on a dagger blade. Daggers were of course personal, not issue type weapons, thus the arsenal suggestion for halberds. According to Mann (Wallace Coll. pp.374-75) these 'ear' daggers are of early Spanish-Moresque design which reflect even earlier Eastern forms which include the 'Luristan' types and of course yataghan hilts. These were produced in Italy, mostly Venice, in the 16th century+ and termed 'daga alla Levantina' or 'alla Stradiotta', often by 'Moorish' workers in Venice. Typical arms interaction between Vienna and Venice would account for the diffusion of course to the north. I would be inclined to regard this example as possibly 17th c. though would consider the etched design possibly later as noted, but not sure of the antiquity of this process, As far as pitting and corrosive activity, it seems to me that this kind of light pitting is not unusual for very old weapons, and is commensurate with the static situation of the weapon and such circumstances. If it was on display or static for some time, dust and moisture absorption would be evident on the side most exposed. Still, again depending on situations, any type of corrosion can accede rather quickly in cases.