The Camel and Heavy Weapons.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by kronckew

edster, the item in your post seems to have disappeared. i note that the drawings (and the one showing a punt gun type on a camel) above show a very precarious mount with the muzzle dangerously close to the camel's head. i would suspect if used many camels would be headless in a pitched battle. it'ds also be very hard to reload. the one real pic of a gun on a camel seems to show it being used to transport a real artillery piece for subsequent reassembly prior to use. drawings can be flights of fancy by artists who never saw but only heard by word of mouth. even the one actually showing the gun would have a hard time firing it in it's present position, especially with shot or langrage. could be used in a fake 'parade style charge & volley fire that performers seem to enjoy in north african get-togeters with muskets firing blanks.

one of my favourite pics, the 1939 classic 'gunga din', (title role played by sam jaffe, who was not indian) not only has some neat sword fights, enfields & bayonets, indian lancer charges and scots guards attacking, but shows a pair of elephants used to transport, in pieces, a proper gatling gun they subsequently assemble and use to more that decimate the enemy 'thugee' cavalry charge, and to fill the air with a cloud of smoke as it would have... a more likely approach for a camel as well. 'gunga din' tends to get TV airing freequently here in the UK, i tend to watch it again and again. made during the end of the british raj, they actually use british and indian soldiers to play both sides in the battle, and the scots guards and indian lancers acted just like they would have in a real period battle there. i've heard they all really enjoyed the battle scenes. i also note it took TWO elephants to carry a gatling and its carriage/ready boxes etc. but they assembled it in a couple of minutes.

anyway, i suspect mounting a proper artillery piece to be fired from a standing camel, or even a prone one, was a literary enhancement.

Apparently not quite; It sounds unbelievable but the lightest of the camel guns could be fired off a standing camel but absolutely never from a moving beast... The camel, it was discovered, hardly flinched when these weapons were fired.

Firing position.
The position was that the camel was instructed to sit. This was achieved by a number of guteral grunts khhhh!!! khhhh!!! khhhh!!!! by the handler upon which the front legs folded and unless the handler leaned backwards at the same time he would be catapulted about 10 feet into the desert... The legs of the camel were then quickly hobbled or tethered making it impossible for it to stand up or scatter on the noise of the gun... Most sketches show how the camel simply peers off into the distance as if registering the fire ...and if they could talk they could give corrections...right 100....etc

Once sitting down the ton and a half of beast and equipment would be a solid platform enough to fire reasonably accurately with cannon or Gatling.

Moghul Artillery see http://warfare.altervista.org/18C/Ar...DStevenson.htm from which I Quote"

Artillery.
The huge guns favoured by the Moghuls were looked upon almost as gods. The gunners were considered the most reliable troops in the army as they were paid directly by the state. The enormity of their guns is apparent when considering that the largest siege guns used by the British were 24 pounders and that 48 pounders were considered average size in Moghul armies. One Indian gun called 'Malik-i-Maidon' ('Master of the Field') fired a roundshot weighing 2,646 pounds. Generally speaking most of the artillery transported to the battlefield were not larger than the 9.5 inch 'Zam-Zama' ('Thunderer'). Because of their size and the relative inefficiency of the Indian gunners and despite their longer range the Moghul guns were far out-classed by the lighter and more manoeuvrable guns of their European foes which delivered a more accurate and higher rate of fire. In action Moghul guns were chained together as an obstacle to charging cavalry.

Some of the lighter guns were mounted on mobile platforms, bullock drawn and pushed from the rear by elephant.

Very light 1 pdr. and ½ pdr. guns were mounted on camels (Zambereks or Zambuks),

or on elephants (Gingals or Jingals).

Rockets.
Rockets were very popular with Moghul armies. The rockets were simply explosive devices fixed to a bamboo shaft, often with a blade attached to it's head. The rockets were ignited and thrown by hand, travelling a wildly erratic course for up to 1,000 yards. Because of this and their small bursting charge, rockets were only effective against large bodies of troops and to scare animals. Rocketeers usually carried their rocket supply in carts or on camels and when not in use the shafts were ornamented with small pennants."Unquote.

So far as I can tell...The camel when seated is the ideal position from which to fire in the dismounted, but on the camel, seated role..There is no way a camel can be used belting along at 10 knots firing its main armament... When seated it is difficult for the animal to raise its head in line with the canon on its back...on the high pintle mounting. The physiology of the camel will not allow that. Once tethered/ hobbled the camel cannot stand up until the hobble rope is untied from its legs... Seated, the firing position is excellent.

Note below that a soldier is holding the chain attached to the camels nose... This nose ring gives total control to the handler... The camel will not move when one of these is pinned through its nose...The firing position shown below is apparently the one used in all armies using this system.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

See below an amazing description of Persian Camel Artillery from http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-VYcvVJDFVp...anzambruck.jpg

Se also https://books.google.com.om/books?id...camels&f=false

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

See below an amazing description of Persian Camel Artillery from http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-VYcvVJDFVp...anzambruck.jpg

Se also https://books.google.com.om/books?id...camels&f=false

Ibrahiim, you forgot the second page.

[Jim McDougall]

Ibrahiim, AMAZING topic!!!!!
Excellent entries and artwork, you and Estcrh are a great team at the graphics and support in these discussions.

Kronckew, I could not be with you more on "Gunga Din", and I can never seem to watch that and these other classics enough.
Many years ago, I was about to watch Gunga Din ..AGAIN! and asked my wife to join me........she said OK......but you cant wear the helmet *...you're scaring the cats!!!!

* my trusty British pith helmet

It is always unclear just how often these weapons were discharged from the animals, it seems mostly they were transported by them, then assembled at position . I think of the Mountain Artillery guns packed in on horseback etc.
I have always thought of camels as pretty skittish, and a loud report or recoil might offset them. But then it seems the firing of matchlocks or muskets from them must have been loud too .

[estcrh]

Indian camel gun, probably 18th Century, but earlier ones would be similar (Tower of London).

[VANDOO]

I HAVE SEEN THE GATLING GUNS FOR MOUNTING ON CAMELS OR BEING TRANSPORTED BY THEM. I AM NOT SURE OF THE CALIBER BUT THEY WERE NOT AS LARGE AS THE ONES MOUNTED ON WHEELS. I HAVE A PICTURE OF A CAMEL WITH ONE MOUNTED ON ITS BACK BUT DIDN'T FIND IT. HERE IS A MORE STANDARD TOUAREG WITH CAMEL, SADDLE, SPEAR AND PERHAPS A LARGE SHIELD.

[kronckew]

there was a small 1893 'police' model gatling in .45-70
rate of fire was 'only' 800 rounds per minute.

if i recall, the crank operated gatling is legal without a machine gun licence from atf as it a manually loaded, cocked, and fired weapon. i recall seeing one in .22lr which is about the only way to afford the ammo, and even that ain't cheap or easy to find in bulk nowadays.

p.s. - the modern equivalent: LINKY TO VIDEO

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Ibrahiim, AMAZING topic!!!!!
Excellent entries and artwork, you and Estcrh are a great team at the graphics and support in these discussions.

Kronckew, I could not be with you more on "Gunga Din", and I can never seem to watch that and these other classics enough.
Many years ago, I was about to watch Gunga Din ..AGAIN! and asked my wife to join me........she said OK......but you cant wear the helmet *...you're scaring the cats!!!!

* my trusty British pith helmet

It is always unclear just how often these weapons were discharged from the animals, it seems mostly they were transported by them, then assembled at position . I think of the Mountain Artillery guns packed in on horseback etc.
I have always thought of camels as pretty skittish, and a loud report or recoil might offset them. But then it seems the firing of matchlocks or muskets from them must have been loud too .

Hello Jim, Camels can be pretty impervious to noise or on other occasions can absolutely go crackers at even a leaf blowing across their front. When sat down (or folded) they can sit docile other than the odd grunt and are immobilized by tying the legs preventing leg extension ... Once they are up and running they don't tend to stop for several hours and even when they do their heartbeat is about the same as it was at the start... When grazing it is best to tie their legs together hobbling them to a few hundred metres overnight otherwise the next day is spent roaring after them beyond the horizon..

Estcrh Thanks for tying in page 2 on that reference and it observes the best position for firing ...enabling a bigger charge to be applied when fully dismounted firing from the ground.

[kronckew]

one of our satellite channels here, 'movies4men', showed gunga din just before lunch today, i tuned in just in time for the final battle scene i mentioned above, ellyfants, smokey gatlings, lancers, scots guards and all form thsoe interested in the UK that can receive the channel it's on again on 22JUN16 at 01:45-04:00 in the morning, so get your recorder programmed

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by kronckew

one of our satellite channels here, 'movies4men', showed gunga din just before lunch today, i tuned in just in time for the final battle scene i mentioned above, ellyfants, smokey gatlings, lancers, scots guards and all form thsoe interested in the UK that can receive the channel it's on again on 22JUN16 at 01:45-04:00 in the morning, so get your recorder programmed

One of the most famous poems ever.. By Rudyard Kipling~

YOU may talk o' gin an' beer
When you're quartered safe out 'ere,
An' you're sent to penny-fights an' Aldershot it;
But if it comes to slaughter
You will do your work on water,
An' you'll lick the bloomin' boots of 'im that's got it.
Now in Injia's sunny clime,
Where I used to spend my time
A-servin' of 'Er Majesty the Queen,
Of all them black-faced crew
The finest man I knew
Was our regimental bhisti, Gunga Din.

It was "Din! Din! Din!
You limping lump o' brick-dust, Gunga Din!
Hi! slippy hitherao!
Water, get it! Panee lao!
You squidgy-nosed old idol, Gunga Din!"

The uniform 'e wore
Was nothin' much before,
An' rather less than 'arf o' that be'ind,
For a twisty piece o' rag
An' a goatskin water-bag
Was all the field-equipment 'e could find.
When the sweatin' troop-train lay
In a sidin' through the day,
Where the 'eat would make your bloomin' eyebrows crawl,
We shouted "Harry By!"
Till our throats were bricky-dry,
Then we wopped 'im 'cause 'e couldn't serve us all.

It was "Din! Din! Din!
You 'eathen, where the mischief 'ave you been?
You put some juldee in it,
Or I'll marrow you this minute,
If you don't fill up my helmet, Gunga Din!"

'E would dot an' carry one
Till the longest day was done,
An' 'e didn't seem to know the use o' fear.
If we charged or broke or cut,
You could bet your bloomin' nut,
'E'd be waitin' fifty paces right flank rear.
With 'is mussick on 'is back,
'E would skip with our attack,
An' watch us till the bugles made "Retire."
An' for all 'is dirty 'ide,
'E was white, clear white, inside
When 'e went to tend the wounded under fire!

It was "Din! Din! Din!"
With the bullets kickin' dust-spots on the green.
When the cartridges ran out,
You could 'ear the front-files shout:
"Hi! ammunition-mules an' Gunga Din!"

I sha'n't forgit the night
When I dropped be'ind the fight
With a bullet where my belt-plate should 'a' been.
I was chokin' mad with thirst,
An' the man that spied me first
Was our good old grinnin', gruntin' Gunga Din.

'E lifted up my 'ead,
An' 'e plugged me where I bled,
An' 'e guv me 'arf-a-pint o' water—green;
It was crawlin' an' it stunk,
But of all the drinks I've drunk,
I'm gratefullest to one from Gunga Din.

It was "Din! Din! Din!
'Ere's a beggar with a bullet through 'is spleen;
'E's chawin' up the ground an' 'e's kickin' all around:
For Gawd's sake, git the water, Gunga Din!"

'E carried me away
To where a dooli lay,
An' a bullet come an' drilled the beggar clean.
'E put me safe inside,
An' just before 'e died:
"I 'ope you liked your drink," sez Gunga Din.
So I'll meet 'im later on
In the place where 'e is gone—
Where it's always double drill and no canteen;
'E'll be squattin' on the coals
Givin' drink to pore damned souls,
An' I'll get a swig in Hell from Gunga Din!

Din! Din! Din!
You Lazarushian-leather Gunga Din!
Tho' I've belted you an' flayed you,
By the livin' Gawd that made you,
You're a better man than I am, Gunga Din!

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by kronckew

one of our satellite channels here, 'movies4men', showed gunga din just before lunch today, i tuned in just in time for the final battle scene i mentioned above, ellyfants, smokey gatlings, lancers, scots guards and all form thsoe interested in the UK that can receive the channel it's on again on 22JUN16 at 01:45-04:00 in the morning, so get your recorder programmed

Wish I still had my helmet!