Questions about Tabar axe

Drabant1701 · 5th June 2016, 08:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by estcrh

Interesting!!!

Indeed interesting find. The shaft on this one is also very similar to other types of axes in this thread. French manufacture could support the World Fair theory.

Another possibility is that the axe heads where made in India exported to europe to be assembled with shafts there.

estcrh · 6th June 2016, 12:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drabant1701

Indeed interesting find. The shaft on this one is also very similar to other types of axes in this thread. French manufacture could support the World Fair theory.

Another possibility is that the axe heads where made in India exported to europe to be assembled with shafts there.

I agree that these could have been specifically made for an expo etc and imported. These axe heads are still being made in India. My specific question is the type you posted and the one I own and the one from armsandantiques, they are radically different in their construction, first there is no terminal head, the axe is solid and flat at the top, second there is no counter balance / hammer at the opposite end of the blade, in fact there is no overhang at all compared to other types.

This type is completely different that any Indian or Persian axe / tabar that I know of with this head type, all others as far as I know have a hole that goes all the way through the head, they also have a counter balance / hammer with a V shaped groove cut into the counter balance / hammer.

I have posted an image with red arrows showing the areas that suggest that this type in particular are a completely different type and only appear to be Indo-Persian. Below are two Indian axe, the red arrows show the typical terminal head at the top and the counter balance / hammer with the V groove cut out.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 6th June 2016, 01:10 PM

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 6th June 2016, 01:27 PM

On the question as to if they were battle or parade items ...I think over time they were both but looking at the David Collection at https://www.davidmus.dk/en/collectio...ar/art/12-1979 and I note;

Quote“Blows were dealt with battle-axes tabar-i-zin, clubs, and swords. A red mist rose from the river.”
(Firdawsi, Shahnama, 10th century)" Unquote.

Certainly the Qajar Dynasty which only ended in about 1923 adds to the concept that axes were for parade work...Earlier, however, (though I still search for more facts ) it appears that Saddle Axes were meant as the antidote to Cavalry in heavy armour which were effective against swords were susceptible to a blow from a Saddle Axe...

What is interesting is what appears to be an early form of battle axe called a Parashu...which I will place in a fresh post.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 6th June 2016, 01:30 PM

From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parashu

Quote"Construction;
The Parashu could be double edged or bladed or single-bladed with a spike on the non cutting edge. It usually measures between 3 – 5 feet though some are as long as 7 feet. The parashu is usually made of iron or wootz steel. The cutting edge is broader than the edge which is attached to the haft. The haft is often tied with a leather sheet to provide a good grip.

In Hinduism;
The parashu is the weapon of the god Shiva who gave it to Parashurama (see artwork below), sixth avatar of Vishnu, whose name means "Rama with the axe" and also taught him its mastery. He is regarded as the founder of the northern style of kalaripayat. Parashurama was the guru of Dronacharya, the guru who instructed the Pandavas in the epic of the Mahabharata. Bhishma and Karna, half brother of Pandava also took instruction in weaponry from Parashurama, a disciple of lord Shiva, and was known to have terrible temper having lost his father to the evil asura. In his anger, Parashurama used the parashu to get rid of the all the Earth's tyrannical kshatriya caste twenty-one times over. Parashurama's weapon had supernatural powers. It had four cutting edges, one on each end of the blade head and one on each end of the shaft.

The Parashu was known as the most lethal close combat weapons of the epics. It is also one of the weapons of Lord Shiva and Goddess Durga and is still depicted on their idols throughout India." Unquote.

It occurred to me that where weapons were so engraved on the psyche through their belief system that those famous ancient seemingly mythical items would find an important place in the actual battle field systems down the ages..

Martial Arts;
I found it interesting that the Agni Purana Martial Style between the 8th and 11th Century AD mentions in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_martial_arts~
Quote" The section concludes with listing the names of actions or "deeds" possible with a number of weapons, including 32 positions to be taken with sword and shield (khaḍgacarmavidhau), 11 names of techniques of using a rope in fighting, along with 5 names of "acts in the rope operation" along with lists of "deeds" pertaining to the chakram (war-quoit), the spear, the tomara (iron club), the gada (mace), the axe, the hammer, the bhindipāla or laguda, the vajra, the dagger, the slingshot, and finally deeds with a bludgeon or cudgel. A short passage near the end of the text returns to the larger concerns of warfare and explains the various uses of war elephants and men. The text concludes with a description of how to appropriately send the well-trained fighter off to war.''Unquote.

Conclusion;
The point is that most of the weapons used in battle by mounted and dismounted Indian warriors are contained in these martial arts which became standard practice throughout the story of India down the ages. It seems apparent that these weapon skills were taught for close combat action and the Mace and Axe would therefor have been used where required....Systems changed and armies developed and dropped certain techniques though retained the weapons for traditions and parade purposes and particularly in the time of the late Persian Qajar period; axes became part of the scene at Military pageants etc. I assume the same thing happened in India...Modern armies still retain such historically honoured weapons such as swords and remnants of body armour, lances, and spears often adorned with regimental colours.

Note; See also https://books.google.com.om/books?id...ghting&f=false page 69 where it is noted that the Sumerians discovered that making the axe head heavier and sharper pushed the foot pound impact up to 77.5 when the critical power needed to crunch through body armour was only 66 foot pounds... thus they had a winner in hand.... which would be a dominant factor for warfare for the next 2000 years.

estcrh · 8th June 2016, 03:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

From [url]
Note; See also https://books.google.com.om/books?id...ghting&f=false page 69 where it is noted that the Sumerians discovered that making the axe head heavier and sharper pushed the foot pound impact up to 77.5 when the critical power needed to crunch through body armour was only 66 foot pounds... thus they had a winner in hand.... which would be a dominant factor for warfare for the next 2000 years.

A good reference.

estcrh · 8th June 2016, 03:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

On the question as to if they were battle or parade items ...I think over time they were both but looking at the David Collection at https://www.davidmus.dk/en/collectio...ar/art/12-1979 and I note;

Quote“Blows were dealt with battle-axes tabar-i-zin, clubs, and swords. A red mist rose from the river.”
(Firdawsi, Shahnama, 10th century)" Unquote.

Certainly the Qajar Dynasty which only ended in about 1923 adds to the concept that axes were for parade work...Earlier, however, (though I still search for more facts ) it appears that Saddle Axes were meant as the antidote to Cavalry in heavy armour which were effective against swords were susceptible to a blow from a Saddle Axe...

What is interesting is what appears to be an early form of battle axe called a Parashu...which I will place in a fresh post.

Here is an axe from the David collection, they label this axe as a "parade weapon", this is a common mistake, there is absolutely no reason to assume that this axe is anything other than a weapon, just because it is decorated and has velvet on the haft does not take away from its ability as a weapon. Wealthy warriors / potentates of every culture owned and used these highly decorated weapons, it was expected of them.

Battle-axe, iron and gold damascening
India; c. 1800
H: 55; L: 13.1 cm
The short, elegant battle-axe (tabar-i-zin) comes from the Persian region, where it was already part of a horseman’s equipment in the early Islamic period. Not all battle-axes were velvet-clad parade weapons like this one, however.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 8th June 2016, 08:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by estcrh

Here is an axe from the David collection, they label this axe as a "parade weapon", this is a common mistake, there is absolutely no reason to assume that this axe is anything other than a weapon, just because it is decorated and has velvet on the haft does not take away from its ability as a weapon. Wealthy warriors / potentates of every culture owned and used these highly decorated weapons, it was expected of them.

Battle-axe, iron and gold damascening
India; c. 1800
H: 55; L: 13.1 cm
The short, elegant battle-axe (tabar-i-zin) comes from the Persian region, where it was already part of a horseman’s equipment in the early Islamic period. Not all battle-axes were velvet-clad parade weapons like this one, however.

Yes you are correct ... That is the weapon I was referencing in my last post but the perception is in the eyes of the reader where it is easy to be misled since it suggests it is only for Parade whilst of course it is also a weapon. The problem developed as heavy cavalry clad in masses of armour declined coinciding in the late Qajar period and the parade nature of these great armies..

In respect of Post 20 and 24. and the Project axe at #1

In the late 19th and early 20th C a lot of copies were made in European centres where French must be the obvious suggested manufacturing point...bearing in mind the expo nature of French industry at the time. I feel the item looks "new" whilst chipped on one corner no other ageing is present in my view. Therefor I suggest the replica nature of this blade, although, it is a reasonable styling of Indo/ Persian form my feeling is it is a reproduction for one of the French exhibitions.

Drabant1701 · 14th July 2016, 10:38 PM

While browsing Herman Historica auctions this socked war hammer caught my eye: http://www.hermann-historica.de/db2_...on65/aw65.html

If you look at the shaft and tassle it looks identical to the ones one the axe that
from *1 that is discussed in this thread. Here is the intresting part. They claim that the hammer was made for the occasion of the 200th anniversary of the Siege of Vienna for an exhibition in Warsaw 1883. Now if there is any truth to that I do not know, it would however support the theory that these kind of parade weapons would be manufactured in the late 19th cemtury.

estcrh · 15th July 2016, 01:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drabant1701

While browsing Herman Historica auctions this socked war hammer caught my eye: http://www.hermann-historica.de/db2_...on65/aw65.html

If you look at the shaft and tassle it looks identical to the ones one the axe that
from *1 that is discussed in this thread. Here is the intresting part. They claim that the hammer was made for the occasion of the 200th anniversary of the Siege of Vienna for an exhibition in Warsaw 1883. Now if there is any truth to that I do not know, it would however support the theory that these kind of parade weapons would be manufactured in the late 19th cemtury.

Good find, I had this picture and discription on my Pinterest site, forgot all about it. The question remains....who exactly made these types of display weapons and in what country were they made.

Ottoman war hammer, crafted hollow iron hammer head with rich ornamental silver work on both sides. Wooden shaft, silver chased and engraved shaft sleeve decorated with leaf tendrils. Quality-crafted replica of an Ottoman horsemans hammer from the 17th century. This copy was made in 1883 on the occasion of the 200th Anniversary of the siege of Vienna, made for an exhibition in Warsaw. Length 94.5 cm.

6th June 2016, 01:10 PM	#3
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 6th June 2016 at 02:37 PM.

6th June 2016, 01:27 PM	#4
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	On the question as to if they were battle or parade items ...I think over time they were both but looking at the David Collection at https://www.davidmus.dk/en/collectio...ar/art/12-1979 and I note; Quote“Blows were dealt with battle-axes tabar-i-zin, clubs, and swords. A red mist rose from the river.” (Firdawsi, Shahnama, 10th century)" Unquote. Certainly the Qajar Dynasty which only ended in about 1923 adds to the concept that axes were for parade work...Earlier, however, (though I still search for more facts ) it appears that Saddle Axes were meant as the antidote to Cavalry in heavy armour which were effective against swords were susceptible to a blow from a Saddle Axe... What is interesting is what appears to be an early form of battle axe called a Parashu...which I will place in a fresh post. Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 6th June 2016 at 02:36 PM.

6th June 2016, 01:30 PM	#5
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	PARASHU. From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parashu Quote"Construction; The Parashu could be double edged or bladed or single-bladed with a spike on the non cutting edge. It usually measures between 3 – 5 feet though some are as long as 7 feet. The parashu is usually made of iron or wootz steel. The cutting edge is broader than the edge which is attached to the haft. The haft is often tied with a leather sheet to provide a good grip. In Hinduism; The parashu is the weapon of the god Shiva who gave it to Parashurama (see artwork below), sixth avatar of Vishnu, whose name means "Rama with the axe" and also taught him its mastery. He is regarded as the founder of the northern style of kalaripayat. Parashurama was the guru of Dronacharya, the guru who instructed the Pandavas in the epic of the Mahabharata. Bhishma and Karna, half brother of Pandava also took instruction in weaponry from Parashurama, a disciple of lord Shiva, and was known to have terrible temper having lost his father to the evil asura. In his anger, Parashurama used the parashu to get rid of the all the Earth's tyrannical kshatriya caste twenty-one times over. Parashurama's weapon had supernatural powers. It had four cutting edges, one on each end of the blade head and one on each end of the shaft. The Parashu was known as the most lethal close combat weapons of the epics. It is also one of the weapons of Lord Shiva and Goddess Durga and is still depicted on their idols throughout India." Unquote. It occurred to me that where weapons were so engraved on the psyche through their belief system that those famous ancient seemingly mythical items would find an important place in the actual battle field systems down the ages.. Martial Arts; I found it interesting that the Agni Purana Martial Style between the 8th and 11th Century AD mentions in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_martial_arts~ Quote" The section concludes with listing the names of actions or "deeds" possible with a number of weapons, including 32 positions to be taken with sword and shield (khaḍgacarmavidhau), 11 names of techniques of using a rope in fighting, along with 5 names of "acts in the rope operation" along with lists of "deeds" pertaining to the chakram (war-quoit), the spear, the tomara (iron club), the gada (mace), the axe, the hammer, the bhindipāla or laguda, the vajra, the dagger, the slingshot, and finally deeds with a bludgeon or cudgel. A short passage near the end of the text returns to the larger concerns of warfare and explains the various uses of war elephants and men. The text concludes with a description of how to appropriately send the well-trained fighter off to war.''Unquote. Conclusion; The point is that most of the weapons used in battle by mounted and dismounted Indian warriors are contained in these martial arts which became standard practice throughout the story of India down the ages. It seems apparent that these weapon skills were taught for close combat action and the Mace and Axe would therefor have been used where required....Systems changed and armies developed and dropped certain techniques though retained the weapons for traditions and parade purposes and particularly in the time of the late Persian Qajar period; axes became part of the scene at Military pageants etc. I assume the same thing happened in India...Modern armies still retain such historically honoured weapons such as swords and remnants of body armour, lances, and spears often adorned with regimental colours. Note; See also https://books.google.com.om/books?id...ghting&f=false page 69 where it is noted that the Sumerians discovered that making the axe head heavier and sharper pushed the foot pound impact up to 77.5 when the critical power needed to crunch through body armour was only 66 foot pounds... thus they had a winner in hand.... which would be a dominant factor for warfare for the next 2000 years. Attached Images Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 6th June 2016 at 03:36 PM.

14th July 2016, 10:38 PM	#9
Drabant1701 Member Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: Sweden Posts: 181	While browsing Herman Historica auctions this socked war hammer caught my eye: http://www.hermann-historica.de/db2_...on65/aw65.html If you look at the shaft and tassle it looks identical to the ones one the axe that from *1 that is discussed in this thread. Here is the intresting part. They claim that the hammer was made for the occasion of the 200th anniversary of the Siege of Vienna for an exhibition in Warsaw 1883. Now if there is any truth to that I do not know, it would however support the theory that these kind of parade weapons would be manufactured in the late 19th cemtury.