Questions about Tabar axe

[ariel]

It is my impression that the idea of a relatively modern and/or souvenir origin of many Indian/ Indo-Persian examples of arms and armor traditionally attributed to 17-18 century is beginning to get firm hold ( at least here).

In the absense of reliable dating and established provenance we may have to give a fresh look at our collections and, certainly, at the items offered for sale, no matter what authorities pronounce their ancient origin.

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by ariel

It is my impression that the idea of a relatively modern and/or souvenir origin of many Indian/ Indo-Persian examples of arms and armor traditionally attributed to 17-18 century is beginning to get firm hold ( at least here).

In the absense of reliable dating and established provenance we may have to give a fresh look at our collections and, certainly, at the items offered for sale, no matter what authorities pronounce their ancient origin.

There is no such thing as an "expert", some people just have a little more knowledge.

These types of socketed axe may not even be Indo-Persian, let alone Persian. This brings into question the method used to make them, are these actually chisled or was some other method used such as machining?

HUGE late 18th C. Persian Safavid Chiselled Tabarzin Axe. The largest of this type of axe I've seen. Very finely chiselled parade axehead, with fine chiselling throughout. This was likely a parade piece. The axehead is made in one piece with the metal part of the shaft or it was welded together at some point. The shaft appears to be a Victorian shaft made for this axe, and the entire piece was lacquered as well. The quality of the chiselling on the axehead is some of the best I've seen, and coupled with the size it's a one of a kind axe. See the comparison pictures with the normal sized axes for sale as well. Overall length is 38", axehead is 8" in length and 4" blade length.

[ariel]

Well, the geschtalt is clearly Persian/Indo-Persian. The identical decorative patterns suggest mass production.
IMHO, the likelihood that they were made in Europe is vanishingly low ( more likely, zero), unless you have evidence to the contrary. New shafts would not count as such.

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by ariel

Well, the geschtalt is clearly Persian/Indo-Persian. The identical decorative patterns suggest mass production.
IMHO, the likelihood that they were made in Europe is vanishingly low ( more likely, zero), unless you have evidence to the contrary. New shafts would not count as such.

Ariel, from what I have seen the shafts are original equipment, they are all very similar and all have that red tassle at the top. Now if you look at known examples of Indo-Persian axe I do not think that socketed axe are very common but these strange examples all have a socket. There is no reason to think that these could not have been made in Europe or elsewere outside of the countries we normally associate this type of axe with.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

In the shape of axe at #1 ~ I see Tabar saddle axe form.(Tabarzin). Persian, though the style often refers to Indo Persian. Often we get somewhat confused over other axe types namely Qajar single and two headed axes which we often observe as Parade axe form although, some of these may well be battle axes as well...One below, top, is a 3 pounder clearly meant to inflict damage. Goantiques states;

Quote''Outstanding quality Indo Persian war axe -Tabar from the Qajar Dynasty period, circa 1750. 7 inches (17 ½ cm) long, large steel crescent blade, most likely Damascus steel wootz is highly decorated on both sides with two Persian aristocrats sitting beside a tree and greatly inlaid in gold koftgari. The loop on the middle has cartouches with Arabic calligraphy. The back of the blade is decorated in arabesque and silver inlaid. The octagonal, steel haft is gold inlaid and cut in a swirled pattern. The axe is very heavy compared to similar Persian axes from the Qajar Dynasty, and is weighing 3 pounds. References: “Weapons- an International Encyclopedia form 5000 BC to 2000 AD” by David Harding, London 1980 + 1990. Overall length: approximately 29 ¾ inches (76 cm)." Unquote.

Others of the single/two head form with these flanged blades are often seen carried by wandering Sufi; thus I understand it as a Sufi badge of office as well.
Shown also some Sufi with various axe types. Other pictures of Axes/Qajari forms...etc

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Ah! Artwork !!!! Note also that an axe with a point was ideal for thrusting at close range and that axes came in weird and wonderful shapes. The haft could also conceal a spike weapon..

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Tying in the ancient religious form or belief it is interesting how many Gods are illustrated with an axe heres one from http://www.artnindia.com/product/par...ty-painting-4/... QUOTE"Parasurama, also known as the “axe-wielding Rama,” was the sixth incarnation (Avatar) of Lord Vishnu . He was born into a Brahmin or priestly family but had the immense physical power and killer instinct than a Kshatriya or the warrior class. Parasurama was the son of the pious saint, Jamadagni. Lord Shiva , pleased by his devotion and penance awarded him an axe, his super weapon. Parashurama is considered ‘Chiranjeevi’ or immortal and that he is said to rule until ‘Maha Pralaya’ or the end of the world."UNQUOTE.

In black garb is a Sikh soldier ( Akali Sikh warrior) with amongst other weapons ...an axe...plus quoits in a special head dress...plus Torador and powder flask and in the large dramatic painting an axe is seen wielded in the centre at the top of the picture...
I selected the lady in the picture as she has a fan shaped like an axe...

[ariel]

Originally Posted by estcrh

There is no reason to think that these could not have been made in Europe or elsewere outside of the countries we normally associate this type of axe with.

There is also no reason to think that Kennedy could not have been killed by Maori firefighters.

Any positive evidence that your suggestion might be true?

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by ariel

There is also no reason to think that Kennedy could not have been killed by Maori firefighters.

Any positive evidence that your suggestion might be true?

Ariel, find me an image of a real antique Indo-Persian socketed axe. I am only repeating what I have read, but since these axe do not follow the usual construction methods, and they seem to have been mass produced in a much larger than average size it is not beyond reason that they may have been made for a particular purpose. If there were made in India or Persia/Iran etc why is their construction method so different than the axe normally made in these countries????

[Drabant1701]

I found some axes online that are mounted with shafts in similar matter as the large axes. Theay are refered to as being from india. And although the large axes are persian in apperance they may well be made in India. They most accurate (and safely boring) term form them would most likely be Indo-Persian.

Regarding when it was made the safe term would be 19th century. But one has to ask the question when was there a demand for this type of decorative weapon. I still think that this axe (large one) was made for export as an display piece for someone in europe or america. They may have been used for some specific purpose, such as world fairs (first on in London 1851) or even sold at retailer. My guess is that its made mid to late 19th century, but that is just my opinion.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

For form...certainly on the Persian Tabarizin or saddle hatchet...saddle axe.... I would observe http://www.caravanacollection.com/pr....html#more-425 bearing in mind that axes similar to these were produced up to and beyond the Qajar Dynasty ...up to 1923 and beyond... and during that time were used as parade axes. I look for axe manufacturers in that late period but nothing yet... however I see no reason why they could not have continued in production in Iran but not forgetting that they were used in several neighboring countries as announced by the word Tabarizin spanning across the spectrum ... viz;

Tabar (axe)
Ammended in italics From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Indian

(Sind) tabar battle axe, late 18th century or earlier, crescent shape 5-inch-long head with a square hammer opposite of the blade, 22-inch-long steel haft, the end of the haft unscrews to reveal a 5-inch or longer slim blade. Heavily patinated head and handle with traces of engraving. India

During the 17th and 18th centuries, the tabar battle axe was a standard weapon of the mounted warriors of India, Afghanistan and what is now Pakistan. Made entirely of metal or with a wood haft, it had a strongly curved blade and a hammer-headed poll and was often decorated with scroll work. Sometimes a small knife was inserted in the tabar's hollow haft.

The tabar (also called tabarzin, which means "saddle axe") is a type of battle axe. The term tabar is used for axes originating from the Ottoman Empire, Persia, Armenia, India and surrounding countries and cultures. As a loanword taken through Iranian Scythian, the word tabar is also used in most Slavic languages as the word for axe (e.g. Russian: топор).


Persia

The tabarzin (saddle axe) (Persian: تبرزین‎‎; sometimes translated "saddle-hatchet") is the traditional battle axe of Persia (Iran). It bears one or two crescent-shaped blades or the well known powerful stubby axe shape with hammer head on one side and heavy axe on the other. The long form of the tabar was about seven feet long, while a shorter version was about three feet long. What makes the Persian axe unique is the less broad handle, which is light and usually metallic.

The tabarzin was sometimes carried as a symbolic weapon by wandering dervishes (Muslim ascetic worshippers).The word tabar for axe was directly borrowed into Armenian as tapar (Armenian: տապար) from Middle Persian tabar,as well as into Proto-Slavonic as "topor" (*toporъ), the latter word known to be taken through Scythian,and is still the common Slavic word for axe.

[ariel]

Originally Posted by estcrh

Ariel, find me an image of a real antique Indo-Persian socketed axe. I am only repeating what I have read, but since these axe do not follow the usual construction methods, and they seem to have been mass produced in a much larger than average size it is not beyond reason that they may have been made for a particular purpose. If there were made in India or Persia/Iran etc why is their construction method so different than the axe normally made in these countries????

No argument against use/production of Tabars in Turkey or Indo-Persian areal. No argument that the ones shown here are of an Indo-Persian or just Persian pattern and decoration. No argument that they might have been made locally late 19 or even early 20th century.

But you were mentioning Europe. Any evidence that some Spanish, French or any other European company produced them en masse for souvenir purposes? This is my only question.

And as for examples, google "scythian axe", ancestors of Persians.
You will find tons of socketed examples dating to BCE