Estoc sword of type XVII ?

[Cerjak]

This sword in the metropolitan Museum has the same type of cross guard.
Of course the geometry of the blade is different but I believe that the 2 swords are from same the period and origin.
http://www.metmuseum.org/art/collect...t=sword&pos=33
Any comment on it will be welcome.
Best
CERJAK

[Cerjak]

an example with same type of pommel and blade geometry said to be Circa 1490

[Foxbat]

Even though I agree with Roland that the typical estoc blade was triangular or square/diamond shape, I have seen estocs with fullers. Less common, yes.

Considering the rather long dimension, I would be inclined to put this nice sword in the same group - by application - as the more traditional estocs.

[Victrix]

I think it is a Reiterschwert with that blade length and width, and with the fuller reaching all the way down to tbe tip. The quillons and tbe pommel indicate this sword was made for fencing. Are the edges of the blade sharpened for cutting with? As far as I’m aware, estoc blades tend to be longer and thinner with very sharp and solid (fuller, if any, ends higher up the blade to increase strength) tips. They are made for thrust rather than cut. The steel had to be especially hardened for their purpose.

[Tordenskiold1721]

Its a very nice sword, Congratulations ! I agree that this sword is for use by the horse mounted carry or in German language "Reiterschwert", as some choose to use. In English, Reiterschwert = Riders sword.

The dating to the late 1400'hundreds also looks about right. We can say for sure that it is not an Estoc. The blade is not made for piercing plate armor or good quality mail of the period.

Definition of the Estoc:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estoc

The grip and handle on the sword could easily have been fitted with an Estoc blade but it is not. The length of the blade is also about the same as on an Estoc as the Estoc's is also made for the horse mounted man.

[Foxbat]

Originally Posted by Tordenskiold1721

We can say for sure that it is not an Estoc. The blade is not made for piercing plate armor or good quality mail of the period.

For clarity, estocs were not meant for piercing plate armor, or even good quality riveted mail for the simple reason that they were not capable of doing that. They were capable of defeating leather armor, gambesons and low quality mail, but not much more than this.

[Tordenskiold1721]

Originally Posted by Foxbat

For clarity, estocs were not meant for piercing plate armor, or even good quality riveted mail for the simple reason that they were not capable of doing that. They were capable of defeating leather armor, gambesons and low quality mail, but not much more than this.

Please provide your references ?

It is not the armor plate itself that is to be pierced but the small openings areas were the plate armor connects such as were the Paulerons, Vembrances, Rerebrace, Cuter, Tassets, etc. And yes a good Estoc will penetrate good mail. Chain mail primarily protects against cuts and slash but is vulnerable to trust, tightly connected mail rings(high quality) and lesser tightly connected rings(low quality). Thinner/ weaker blades such as the one shown here might break when driven between the Paulderons and breast plate.

Please see this very good definition of the Estoc again and its purpose again:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estoc

Its actually a good explanation made in short and clear.

Unfortunately I am traveling right now. So I can not show you photos of my own period armor's and chain mails and armor piercing and fighting weapons. Its a interesting subject in it self. Subject such as Estoc, armor piercing daggers, war hammers, pole arms, pole axes etc :-) The original items makes it easy to understand the connections regarding the aforementioned.



Hand and a half Estoc fighting during tournament. Note how the combatants are searching for the opening in the opponents plate armor

[Victrix]

Originally Posted by Cerjak

an example with same type of pommel and blade geometry said to be Circa 1490

Nice room, Cerjak. I especially love the halberd rack.

[Cerjak]

Originally Posted by Victrix

Nice room, Cerjak. I especially love the halberd rack.

Hi Vitrix
This room is not my room but only some pictures I found on a similar sword

[Tordenskiold1721]

Originally Posted by Cerjak

Hi Vitrix
This room is not my room but only some pictures I found on a similar sword

Reference to the dealer were you can see more detailed photos of the same sword is:

http://www.antik-sammlerboerse.info/

The items:

http://www.xn--antik-sammlerbrse-d0b.de/

[cornelistromp]

similar pommel in stibbert Museum Firenze.

best,
jasper

[Cerjak]

Many Thanks Jasper
very interesting I hope to find a better picture with information about this sword
Best

Jean-Luc