what type of sarung/scabbard fits this keris?

Gustav · 28th May 2016, 09:03 AM

Entire blade.

Gustav · 28th May 2016, 09:12 AM

Because of the unique hilt style and not quite Palembang Mendak it would still look strange in a conventional Palembang sheath. Something like old North Coast Java/Lampung would look perhaps a little bit better, perhaps not. I also doubt, the Mendak and hilt are aesthetically the best mix.

Do we see such extensive use of granulation on Mendak in Sumatra?

Green · 28th May 2016, 11:56 AM

Here's a few more pics , sorry they are not v clear as they were taken under low light. The inside of the pendokok look dull with suasa tint but on rubbing it, yellow color quickly came out.

I don't see any silver but it could very well be gilded as this method of spraying golden layer on base metal is v often done on many malay pendokok... except that the pendokok look rather thin and does not look like a typical malay pendokok.

also, i can't put what type of blade this is. does not look typical malay blade..the aggressive abuse (?) of surface texture of the blade by the previous western (?) owner doesn't help. For it could have been previously warangan (which puts it to javanese type) or wasn't.

A. G. Maisey · 28th May 2016, 01:22 PM

I agree with you Gustav, this is not a typical Palembang blade, but its not typical of anything I know, certainly not Jawa, and with that kaku blade it doesn't fit easily anywhere, however, there have been some mighty queer keris emerge from South Sumatra, and Palembang dress is as good as any dress that I can imagine to put this into.

When trying to make a decision on keris origins and nothing is obvious, we usually play a game of elimination and then see what we have left. If we cannot place this keris with some degree of certainty into one of the big, well-known baskets, then Sumatra is probably where it belongs, and South Sumatra is perhaps the safest dress to use.

The problem we face when trying to determine geographic point of origin for keris is this:- once we move away from an area of dominant influence, the rules fly out the door. There is variation upon variation upon variation, and nothing is certain, so we do the best we can under miserable circumstances.

I'd still run with Palembang --- unless somebody has a better suggestion?

One of the really good indicators with any keris blade is the way in which the ron dha is cut. The ron dha on this keris shows absolutely no consistency of form, and nothing that is identifiable as any known form, but it does show a form that mimics the elements of a correctly cut Palembang or Javanese ron dha, almost as if the maker had seen a correctly made keris and tried to remember what it looked like. Again, the prominent ada-ada, a distinctive feature in some Javanese keris, but not to this extent, and the number of waves? An abomination and an insult. This blade was not made by any empu, nor any pandai keris, it was made by a talented tukang besi at a customer's direction.

Gustav · 28th May 2016, 01:30 PM

I also would say South Sumatra.

Alan, I know, that Garrett and Bronwen Solyom have done some research on Lampung. Is there some material about Kerisses in this research?

A. G. Maisey · 28th May 2016, 01:37 PM

I don't know Gustav. I understand that they worked on an exhibition and produced a catalogue, but I have not seen that catalogue. However, I doubt that whatever we might find in that cat would be of much assistance in confirming origin of this keris, it is a relatively recent and very non-typical form. I wonder just a little bit if it might have actually been produced in Kalimantan for a customer from South Sumatra. That is very often where keris that just don't quite fit come from.

David · 28th May 2016, 01:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Green

Here's a few more pics , sorry they are not v clear as they were taken under low light. The inside of the pendokok look dull with suasa tint but on rubbing it, yellow color quickly came out.

I don't see any silver but it could very well be gilded as this method of spraying golden layer on base metal is v often done on many malay pendokok... except that the pendokok look rather thin and does not look like a typical malay pendokok.

also, i can't put what type of blade this is. does not look typical malay blade..the aggressive abuse (?) of surface texture of the blade by the previous western (?) owner doesn't help. For it could have been previously warangan (which puts it to javanese type) or wasn't.

Green, in these latest photos the hilt cup doesn't look like suassa or gold at all. Looks a little copper-ish on the interior, but i would more likely suggest brass if pushed.
This keris looks like a Palembang (Sumatra) blade, which i believe was already established, so i would not classify it as a Malay blade nor expect the same treatment given to a Malay blade. The only "abuse" i see of this blade os that it needs a cleaning to remove the rust. If i am not mistaken, it would be expected that keris from this region would also receive warangan much the way a Javanese keris would. The surface texture does not look abused (aggressive or otherwise) to me, at least not that i can see in your photos. I would expect a keris from this region to have such a topographical surface as this. Of course, if you are unhappy with the condition of this keris please send it to me immediately and i will give its poor "damaged" self a good home.

Sajen · 28th May 2016, 02:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

The only "abuse" i see of this blade os that it needs a cleaning to remove the rust. If i am not mistaken, it would be expected that keris from this region would also receive warangan much the way a Javanese keris would. The surface texture does not look abused (aggressive or otherwise) to me, at least not that i can see in your photos. I would expect a keris from this region to have such a topographical surface as this. Of course, if you are unhappy with the condition of this keris please send it to me immediately and i will give its poor "damaged" self a good home.

Full agreement with David, but when you unhappy with it send it to my address!

Regards,
Detlef

Green · 28th May 2016, 04:08 PM

ah haha... looks like i've no trouble to find a home for this one should i decide to part with it!

i'm however rather struck by a very strong opinion of Mr Maisey's about the standard and quality of this keris. i'm in no way to judge it myself as i'm absolutely ignorant about the finer details of keris blades.

what attracts me to this in the first place is the big old ivory hilt which i still don't know what 'basket' it belongs to. looks like it may be a mongrel just like the blade. not that i worry about it too much...and the mendak/pendokok... gold, brass etc... i still don't have a definitive clue.

one thing for sure is, taking Alan's and others' suggestion , next week i'll get the local MALAY peninsular malaysia sarong/scabbard maker to make a palembang sarung for this... unless he has a very strong opinion other wise...and further reinforcing the mongrel-ness of this keris!

David · 28th May 2016, 07:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Green

one thing for sure is, taking Alan's and others' suggestion , next week i'll get the local MALAY peninsular malaysia sarong/scabbard maker to make a palembang sarung for this... unless he has a very strong opinion other wise...and further reinforcing the mongrel-ness of this keris!

Well another way of looking at it, if indeed this is a "mongrel" of sorts, is that keris blades sometimes have a natural migration from one keris culture to the next. How you choose to dress it may really be a matter of your own intentions as the current owner. If this blade were to come to you in a space and time where you as the owner might choose to actually wear it as a cultural dress item i would image that you might decide to dress the blade to the culture in which you live. If your intention is as a collector looking to preserve the original cultural integrity of the blade that might be more difficult. I would suggest a Sumatran form since i suspect that might be the origin of this blade, but as Alan points out, it is not specifically typical for a Palembang blade. Frankly i have less even understanding of the origins of this lovely and unique Jawa Demam hilt.
21 luks is indeed unusual for a keris blade from ANY culture (and an oddity that i like about this) and this blade doesn't fit into any particular "pakem" AFAIK, however i don't quite see how this can be seen as an "abomination and an insult". To whom? Certainly not the person it was made for. Just seems a bit too severe a judgement to me.

28th May 2016, 09:03 AM	#1
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,295	Entire blade. Attached Images

28th May 2016, 09:12 AM	#2
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,295	Because of the unique hilt style and not quite Palembang Mendak it would still look strange in a conventional Palembang sheath. Something like old North Coast Java/Lampung would look perhaps a little bit better, perhaps not. I also doubt, the Mendak and hilt are aesthetically the best mix. Do we see such extensive use of granulation on Mendak in Sumatra? Last edited by Gustav; 28th May 2016 at 09:31 AM.

28th May 2016, 11:56 AM	#3
Green Member Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: Malaysia Posts: 323	Here's a few more pics , sorry they are not v clear as they were taken under low light. The inside of the pendokok look dull with suasa tint but on rubbing it, yellow color quickly came out. I don't see any silver but it could very well be gilded as this method of spraying golden layer on base metal is v often done on many malay pendokok... except that the pendokok look rather thin and does not look like a typical malay pendokok. also, i can't put what type of blade this is. does not look typical malay blade..the aggressive abuse (?) of surface texture of the blade by the previous western (?) owner doesn't help. For it could have been previously warangan (which puts it to javanese type) or wasn't. Attached Images

28th May 2016, 01:22 PM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,047	I agree with you Gustav, this is not a typical Palembang blade, but its not typical of anything I know, certainly not Jawa, and with that kaku blade it doesn't fit easily anywhere, however, there have been some mighty queer keris emerge from South Sumatra, and Palembang dress is as good as any dress that I can imagine to put this into. When trying to make a decision on keris origins and nothing is obvious, we usually play a game of elimination and then see what we have left. If we cannot place this keris with some degree of certainty into one of the big, well-known baskets, then Sumatra is probably where it belongs, and South Sumatra is perhaps the safest dress to use. The problem we face when trying to determine geographic point of origin for keris is this:- once we move away from an area of dominant influence, the rules fly out the door. There is variation upon variation upon variation, and nothing is certain, so we do the best we can under miserable circumstances. I'd still run with Palembang --- unless somebody has a better suggestion? One of the really good indicators with any keris blade is the way in which the ron dha is cut. The ron dha on this keris shows absolutely no consistency of form, and nothing that is identifiable as any known form, but it does show a form that mimics the elements of a correctly cut Palembang or Javanese ron dha, almost as if the maker had seen a correctly made keris and tried to remember what it looked like. Again, the prominent ada-ada, a distinctive feature in some Javanese keris, but not to this extent, and the number of waves? An abomination and an insult. This blade was not made by any empu, nor any pandai keris, it was made by a talented tukang besi at a customer's direction.

28th May 2016, 01:30 PM	#5
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,295	I also would say South Sumatra. Alan, I know, that Garrett and Bronwen Solyom have done some research on Lampung. Is there some material about Kerisses in this research?

28th May 2016, 01:37 PM	#6
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,047	I don't know Gustav. I understand that they worked on an exhibition and produced a catalogue, but I have not seen that catalogue. However, I doubt that whatever we might find in that cat would be of much assistance in confirming origin of this keris, it is a relatively recent and very non-typical form. I wonder just a little bit if it might have actually been produced in Kalimantan for a customer from South Sumatra. That is very often where keris that just don't quite fit come from.

28th May 2016, 04:08 PM	#9
Green Member Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: Malaysia Posts: 323	ah haha... looks like i've no trouble to find a home for this one should i decide to part with it! i'm however rather struck by a very strong opinion of Mr Maisey's about the standard and quality of this keris. i'm in no way to judge it myself as i'm absolutely ignorant about the finer details of keris blades. what attracts me to this in the first place is the big old ivory hilt which i still don't know what 'basket' it belongs to. looks like it may be a mongrel just like the blade. not that i worry about it too much...and the mendak/pendokok... gold, brass etc... i still don't have a definitive clue. one thing for sure is, taking Alan's and others' suggestion , next week i'll get the local MALAY peninsular malaysia sarong/scabbard maker to make a palembang sarung for this... unless he has a very strong opinion other wise...and further reinforcing the mongrel-ness of this keris!