Waved blades debate - combat value

MABAGANI · 1st February 2006, 08:09 AM

I'm not sure you can throw every blade with a wave in the same category as a "fashion or esthetic statement". The Moro kris "swords" with or without waves were both effective combat weapon, maybe more a matter of form and fighting preference.

Radu Transylvanicus · 1st February 2006, 10:43 AM

Mabagani, with all respect to the traditional or spiritual, does a waved blade inflict a deeper cut, a longer cut or presents any advantages other than visual over the classic cutting edge?
I find elements like weight, shape, curvature, length, sharpness, material type to make a crucial difference but a waved edge does not seem to change eficacity. The most honest working waved blades I see it in the Moro Keris and the Landesknecht which seem to not loose their capacity of combat eficiency but those like some African or Hindo-Persian weapons have nothing but to loose by keeping the blade shape in cause and so far I am convinced its nothing but a matter of esthetics, likely the case with absolutelly all of them.
In the case of the Moro (Tausug) blades is there any action or effect waved ones can inflict and the others cannot ?
Waved blades have nothing in common with saw or serrated blades in case anyone tries to open that up...

MABAGANI · 1st February 2006, 01:26 PM

Setting aside tradition and spiritual aspects, etc., and looking at it from the point of combat, when the Moro kris is in its scabbard in most cases one wouldn't really know whether or not its straight, wavy, wavy straight, saber, etc. only a general idea of the length and what you'd expect looking at the opponent. Once the sword is drawn and it is a wavy kris, the things to watch out for are the cuts which need to enter flesh and bones at a certain angles to cause the most damage, the krismen are going for a kill or to inflict the most damage with every shot, cutting or thrusting, with this in mind the matter of asthetics and fashion in or out of the scabbard are moot points. btw The cutting action of a wavy kris is kind of like cutting wood, flesh and bone at an angle with the grain but the perpendicular bouncing drag shot could have been advantageous against multiple opponents and in close quarters, like the kampilan, perhaps why numerous wavy kris are seen in old photos and collections. Again, its a matter of preference and custom fitting, I've seen wavy kris swords from heavy to light and long to short, each is going to have its varying degree of action and effect depending on the depth of the waves and frequency, regardless of the weapon it'd be the same intention if its a true Moro swordsman trying to severe limbs, decapitate and kill using whatever they had at the moment, so the Tausug saying goes...

not2sharp · 3rd February 2006, 05:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Radu Transylvanicus

In the case of the Moro (Tausug) blades is there any action or effect waved ones can inflict and the others cannot ?

The answer to that one is yes. It is hard for us to appreciate the difference because we have not tried to use one of these blades in combat. Cutting flesh is not like choping through some vine. For one thing, living flesh is very elastic; a wound canal will constantly act to close. So if you thrust with a straight edge, the wound would exert pressure along the entire circumfrence of the blade. However when you turn it into a curvy blade, then the wound can only exert pressure against the outside edge. For this reason, I suspect that a curvy edge weapon would require far less force to drive into a victim.

n2s

nechesh · 3rd February 2006, 06:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by not2sharp

The answer to that one is yes. It is hard for us to appreciate the difference because we have not tried to use one of these blades in combat. Cutting flesh is not like choping through some vine. For one thing, living flesh is very elastic; a wound canal will constantly act to close. So if you thrust with a straight edge, the wound would exert pressure along the entire circumfrence of the blade. However when you turn it into a curvy blade, then the wound can only exert pressure against the outside edge. For this reason, I suspect that a curvy edge weapon would require far less force to drive into a victim.

n2s

I won't argue with your theory here n2s, which may well hold true, but i will point out that the Moro kris is not really a thrusting weapon. Most of it's effective wounds would be dealt with a slash with the edge, not with the point. In fact i have incountered many Moro kris with dull, even rounded tips. My question would be whether the wavy longer edge would be more effective in a slash and draw blow than the straigt blade. It seems like it might.

Battara · 3rd February 2006, 07:48 PM

I'm inclined to agree with Mabagani. Against flesh a glancing blow with a kris could seem like large saw teeth, but the problem is the bouncing affect, especially against any armour (which only datus could afford). But against multiple opponents one would not want to spend too much time making too deep of cuts on any one person but hit as many as possible multiple times. Depends on the style and the skills of the warrior in question.

Jim McDougall · 6th February 2006, 04:23 AM

It seems pertinant to note in this case that there are distinct differences in wavy or undulating blades and those which are serrated. While the wavy form in blades appear to be for effect, it is known that close serration on cutting knives is considered effective.
In most cases it is presumed that 'wavy' blades are mostly associated with ceremonial purpose, however Burton (p.137) suggests in discussing the wavy blade that, "...the object seems to be that of increasing the cutting surface".
The term 'flamberge' in the 8th c. was applied in France to nickname the sword of the knight Renaud de Montauban, meaning flamboyant. The term flammard by 13th c. had become used to describe knightly swords, and alluded to the flaming sword described in Biblical literature. It would seem that that symbolism was applied literally in the wavy blades seen on the huge landsknecht swords, without actual practical value being considered.
Swords with serpentine or undulating blades in India are of course of Nagan symbolism. Dr.Yusel in his "Islamic Swords and Swordsmiths" (p.139) notes,"...highly unusual serpentine shaped swords that began to appear in the Ottoman world from the time of Sultan Bayezid II onwards. It seems hard to imagine that these swords had a use other than ceremonial".
In Pant (p.56-57) discussing nagan type swords, he notes serrated zig zag blades and that "...it is said that these swords were used against armour, but since these were not found very suitable by soldiers, abandoned in the late 17th c. AD".

In considering the purpose of the luk, or waves, on the blades of the Keris, I would defer to the knowledge of those enthusiasts here, however it is my impression that the number of these 'luk' is significant in symbolism in the blade itself.

It is important to also consider toothed, or saw type blades, typically intended for utility or practical purposes on bayonets and the short swords of pioneers in military units. These dual purpose weapons were often misperceived as barbaric weapons to cause horrific wounds, but of course were more tools than weapons, and were quite impractical in that use.

Despite the earlier case closed status on this topic, I simply wanted to add more detail on why the wavy, undulating or serpentine (nagan) blade would be more likely considered ceremonial or symbolic. While the toothed or saw blade would be somewhat impractical in most cutting or especially thrusting action, the serrated blade may have guaged functional merit.

Best regards,
Jim

Radu Transylvanicus · 6th February 2006, 04:58 AM

Jim, if you ever see a cat burglar running out trough the window with a bunch of your books from your library, please dont aim for the head. It could kill me...

1st February 2006, 01:26 PM	#3
MABAGANI Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 221	Setting aside tradition and spiritual aspects, etc., and looking at it from the point of combat, when the Moro kris is in its scabbard in most cases one wouldn't really know whether or not its straight, wavy, wavy straight, saber, etc. only a general idea of the length and what you'd expect looking at the opponent. Once the sword is drawn and it is a wavy kris, the things to watch out for are the cuts which need to enter flesh and bones at a certain angles to cause the most damage, the krismen are going for a kill or to inflict the most damage with every shot, cutting or thrusting, with this in mind the matter of asthetics and fashion in or out of the scabbard are moot points. btw The cutting action of a wavy kris is kind of like cutting wood, flesh and bone at an angle with the grain but the perpendicular bouncing drag shot could have been advantageous against multiple opponents and in close quarters, like the kampilan, perhaps why numerous wavy kris are seen in old photos and collections. Again, its a matter of preference and custom fitting, I've seen wavy kris swords from heavy to light and long to short, each is going to have its varying degree of action and effect depending on the depth of the waves and frequency, regardless of the weapon it'd be the same intention if its a true Moro swordsman trying to severe limbs, decapitate and kill using whatever they had at the moment, so the Tausug saying goes... Last edited by MABAGANI; 2nd February 2006 at 07:00 AM.

1st February 2006, 08:09 AM	#1
MABAGANI Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 221	I'm not sure you can throw every blade with a wave in the same category as a "fashion or esthetic statement". The Moro kris "swords" with or without waves were both effective combat weapon, maybe more a matter of form and fighting preference.

1st February 2006, 10:43 AM	#2
Radu Transylvanicus Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: 2008-2010 Bali, 1998-2008 USA Posts: 271	Mabagani, with all respect to the traditional or spiritual, does a waved blade inflict a deeper cut, a longer cut or presents any advantages other than visual over the classic cutting edge? I find elements like weight, shape, curvature, length, sharpness, material type to make a crucial difference but a waved edge does not seem to change eficacity. The most honest working waved blades I see it in the Moro Keris and the Landesknecht which seem to not loose their capacity of combat eficiency but those like some African or Hindo-Persian weapons have nothing but to loose by keeping the blade shape in cause and so far I am convinced its nothing but a matter of esthetics, likely the case with absolutelly all of them. In the case of the Moro (Tausug) blades is there any action or effect waved ones can inflict and the others cannot ? Waved blades have nothing in common with saw or serrated blades in case anyone tries to open that up...

3rd February 2006, 07:48 PM	#6
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,272	I'm inclined to agree with Mabagani. Against flesh a glancing blow with a kris could seem like large saw teeth, but the problem is the bouncing affect, especially against any armour (which only datus could afford). But against multiple opponents one would not want to spend too much time making too deep of cuts on any one person but hit as many as possible multiple times. Depends on the style and the skills of the warrior in question.

6th February 2006, 04:23 AM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	It seems pertinant to note in this case that there are distinct differences in wavy or undulating blades and those which are serrated. While the wavy form in blades appear to be for effect, it is known that close serration on cutting knives is considered effective. In most cases it is presumed that 'wavy' blades are mostly associated with ceremonial purpose, however Burton (p.137) suggests in discussing the wavy blade that, "...the object seems to be that of increasing the cutting surface". The term 'flamberge' in the 8th c. was applied in France to nickname the sword of the knight Renaud de Montauban, meaning flamboyant. The term flammard by 13th c. had become used to describe knightly swords, and alluded to the flaming sword described in Biblical literature. It would seem that that symbolism was applied literally in the wavy blades seen on the huge landsknecht swords, without actual practical value being considered. Swords with serpentine or undulating blades in India are of course of Nagan symbolism. Dr.Yusel in his "Islamic Swords and Swordsmiths" (p.139) notes,"...highly unusual serpentine shaped swords that began to appear in the Ottoman world from the time of Sultan Bayezid II onwards. It seems hard to imagine that these swords had a use other than ceremonial". In Pant (p.56-57) discussing nagan type swords, he notes serrated zig zag blades and that "...it is said that these swords were used against armour, but since these were not found very suitable by soldiers, abandoned in the late 17th c. AD". In considering the purpose of the luk, or waves, on the blades of the Keris, I would defer to the knowledge of those enthusiasts here, however it is my impression that the number of these 'luk' is significant in symbolism in the blade itself. It is important to also consider toothed, or saw type blades, typically intended for utility or practical purposes on bayonets and the short swords of pioneers in military units. These dual purpose weapons were often misperceived as barbaric weapons to cause horrific wounds, but of course were more tools than weapons, and were quite impractical in that use. Despite the earlier case closed status on this topic, I simply wanted to add more detail on why the wavy, undulating or serpentine (nagan) blade would be more likely considered ceremonial or symbolic. While the toothed or saw blade would be somewhat impractical in most cutting or especially thrusting action, the serrated blade may have guaged functional merit. Best regards, Jim

6th February 2006, 04:58 AM	#8
Radu Transylvanicus Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: 2008-2010 Bali, 1998-2008 USA Posts: 271	Jim, if you ever see a cat burglar running out trough the window with a bunch of your books from your library, please dont aim for the head. It could kill me...