Waved blades debate - combat value

Emanuel · 1st February 2006, 12:56 AM

Hello Radu, hello all,

Wouldn't wavy blades be more effective at draw cuts than straight blades? Much like the falx and all those sickle weapons, the pulling/cutting motion would pull the convex blade deeper into the object being cut, no?
For beasts like the zweihander draw-cuts may not be feasible but how about the smaller blades?
IMO the waves of these large flamberge swords were more aesthetic - the symbol of Archangel Michael's flaming sword in battle would be an awesome sight- than functional. Is the parying advantage of the wavy blades that important, or is it negligible?

Regards,
Manolo

Radu Transylvanicus · 1st February 2006, 07:33 AM

CONCLUSION - ITS MORE FOR THE ESTHETICS ! Unless any groundbreaking info, its a closed chapter !

MABAGANI · 1st February 2006, 08:09 AM

I'm not sure you can throw every blade with a wave in the same category as a "fashion or esthetic statement". The Moro kris "swords" with or without waves were both effective combat weapon, maybe more a matter of form and fighting preference.

Radu Transylvanicus · 1st February 2006, 10:43 AM

Mabagani, with all respect to the traditional or spiritual, does a waved blade inflict a deeper cut, a longer cut or presents any advantages other than visual over the classic cutting edge?
I find elements like weight, shape, curvature, length, sharpness, material type to make a crucial difference but a waved edge does not seem to change eficacity. The most honest working waved blades I see it in the Moro Keris and the Landesknecht which seem to not loose their capacity of combat eficiency but those like some African or Hindo-Persian weapons have nothing but to loose by keeping the blade shape in cause and so far I am convinced its nothing but a matter of esthetics, likely the case with absolutelly all of them.
In the case of the Moro (Tausug) blades is there any action or effect waved ones can inflict and the others cannot ?
Waved blades have nothing in common with saw or serrated blades in case anyone tries to open that up...

MABAGANI · 1st February 2006, 01:26 PM

Setting aside tradition and spiritual aspects, etc., and looking at it from the point of combat, when the Moro kris is in its scabbard in most cases one wouldn't really know whether or not its straight, wavy, wavy straight, saber, etc. only a general idea of the length and what you'd expect looking at the opponent. Once the sword is drawn and it is a wavy kris, the things to watch out for are the cuts which need to enter flesh and bones at a certain angles to cause the most damage, the krismen are going for a kill or to inflict the most damage with every shot, cutting or thrusting, with this in mind the matter of asthetics and fashion in or out of the scabbard are moot points. btw The cutting action of a wavy kris is kind of like cutting wood, flesh and bone at an angle with the grain but the perpendicular bouncing drag shot could have been advantageous against multiple opponents and in close quarters, like the kampilan, perhaps why numerous wavy kris are seen in old photos and collections. Again, its a matter of preference and custom fitting, I've seen wavy kris swords from heavy to light and long to short, each is going to have its varying degree of action and effect depending on the depth of the waves and frequency, regardless of the weapon it'd be the same intention if its a true Moro swordsman trying to severe limbs, decapitate and kill using whatever they had at the moment, so the Tausug saying goes...

not2sharp · 3rd February 2006, 05:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Radu Transylvanicus

In the case of the Moro (Tausug) blades is there any action or effect waved ones can inflict and the others cannot ?

The answer to that one is yes. It is hard for us to appreciate the difference because we have not tried to use one of these blades in combat. Cutting flesh is not like choping through some vine. For one thing, living flesh is very elastic; a wound canal will constantly act to close. So if you thrust with a straight edge, the wound would exert pressure along the entire circumfrence of the blade. However when you turn it into a curvy blade, then the wound can only exert pressure against the outside edge. For this reason, I suspect that a curvy edge weapon would require far less force to drive into a victim.

n2s

nechesh · 3rd February 2006, 06:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by not2sharp

The answer to that one is yes. It is hard for us to appreciate the difference because we have not tried to use one of these blades in combat. Cutting flesh is not like choping through some vine. For one thing, living flesh is very elastic; a wound canal will constantly act to close. So if you thrust with a straight edge, the wound would exert pressure along the entire circumfrence of the blade. However when you turn it into a curvy blade, then the wound can only exert pressure against the outside edge. For this reason, I suspect that a curvy edge weapon would require far less force to drive into a victim.

n2s

I won't argue with your theory here n2s, which may well hold true, but i will point out that the Moro kris is not really a thrusting weapon. Most of it's effective wounds would be dealt with a slash with the edge, not with the point. In fact i have incountered many Moro kris with dull, even rounded tips. My question would be whether the wavy longer edge would be more effective in a slash and draw blow than the straigt blade. It seems like it might.

Battara · 3rd February 2006, 07:48 PM

I'm inclined to agree with Mabagani. Against flesh a glancing blow with a kris could seem like large saw teeth, but the problem is the bouncing affect, especially against any armour (which only datus could afford). But against multiple opponents one would not want to spend too much time making too deep of cuts on any one person but hit as many as possible multiple times. Depends on the style and the skills of the warrior in question.

nechesh · 2nd February 2006, 06:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Radu Transylvanicus

CONCLUSION - ITS MORE FOR THE ESTHETICS ! Unless any groundbreaking info, its a closed chapter !

Interesting scientific method Radu. After just 6 responses (mostly posting examples, not arguing theory) you have declared this a closed chapter?

I guess it's a case of "If a wavy kris cuts in the forest and no one is there to see it bleed more (or less...or the same) than a straight blade does it really cut at all?

It seems to me that there needs to be a whole lot more scientific experimentation before we can come to any real conclusions on this one, don't you think?

Radu Transylvanicus · 2nd February 2006, 07:12 PM

Welcome, welcome ...

The arguments not the accusations, please... Point the theory not the finger, dear ol' chap

I opened the discussion, remember?
Its true, I cannot expect anyone to sacrifice his old weapon or worse

God forbid his limbs, (any volunteers?

) I dont think much ground has been covered on testing such blades. And I doubt battle accounts in the matter are written on paper...
One thing for sure, a waved blade must be a lot harder to sharpen evenly...

nechesh · 2nd February 2006, 11:19 PM

Sorry Radu, i wasn't trying to do any finger pointing. Of course i remember that you opened the thread. That's why i was wondering why you were trying to close it out so quickly. Generally that's what i assume when someone says,"...it's a closed chapter."
You are probably right, it might be a lot harder to sharpen a wavy blade evenly. But somehow the Moro know the trick because my wavy example is sharp as a razor all along it's length.

Perhaps testing could be done on materials that approximate the texture and hardness of flesh. Anyone have any ideas?

manicdj · 11th February 2006, 08:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Radu Transylvanicus

Welcome, welcome ...

The arguments not the accusations, please... Point the theory not the finger, dear ol' chap

I opened the discussion, remember?
Its true, I cannot expect anyone to sacrifice his old weapon or worse

God forbid his limbs, (any volunteers?

) I dont think much ground has been covered on testing such blades. And I doubt battle accounts in the matter are written on paper...
One thing for sure, a waved blade must be a lot harder to sharpen evenly...

This changes averything I thought about cutting and ripping

Think of that kind of damage

M ELEY · 12th February 2006, 05:18 AM

One could always test some of the theories out on a helpless cassaba melon or two! I remember that Alfred Hitchcock used cassaba melons being stabbed to simulate the sound of a perforating knife in the original Psycho movie. In my opinion, there's no question of the damage a Moro kriss, wavy or straight, could do to a man (case in point, American GI's during the Spanish American war). As far as serrated weapons go, I remember a discussion from a number of years back concerning Kingsmill Island swords (tebutji?) with the shark teeth and quite a few varying opinions. For my part, I have taken a saw and wacked off a smaller tree limb and the saw bit pretty deep into the bark as well (probably as deep as many swords I've welded). That being said, i could see where a curved blade would be totally impractical on horseback as it might bite deep and not pull free. Does anyone feel that a wavy bladed sword might have a tendency to stick in a chest cavity more than a straight blade? Just curious...

1st February 2006, 01:26 PM	#5
MABAGANI Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 221	Setting aside tradition and spiritual aspects, etc., and looking at it from the point of combat, when the Moro kris is in its scabbard in most cases one wouldn't really know whether or not its straight, wavy, wavy straight, saber, etc. only a general idea of the length and what you'd expect looking at the opponent. Once the sword is drawn and it is a wavy kris, the things to watch out for are the cuts which need to enter flesh and bones at a certain angles to cause the most damage, the krismen are going for a kill or to inflict the most damage with every shot, cutting or thrusting, with this in mind the matter of asthetics and fashion in or out of the scabbard are moot points. btw The cutting action of a wavy kris is kind of like cutting wood, flesh and bone at an angle with the grain but the perpendicular bouncing drag shot could have been advantageous against multiple opponents and in close quarters, like the kampilan, perhaps why numerous wavy kris are seen in old photos and collections. Again, its a matter of preference and custom fitting, I've seen wavy kris swords from heavy to light and long to short, each is going to have its varying degree of action and effect depending on the depth of the waves and frequency, regardless of the weapon it'd be the same intention if its a true Moro swordsman trying to severe limbs, decapitate and kill using whatever they had at the moment, so the Tausug saying goes... Last edited by MABAGANI; 2nd February 2006 at 07:00 AM.

1st February 2006, 12:56 AM	#1
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Hello Radu, hello all, Wouldn't wavy blades be more effective at draw cuts than straight blades? Much like the falx and all those sickle weapons, the pulling/cutting motion would pull the convex blade deeper into the object being cut, no? For beasts like the zweihander draw-cuts may not be feasible but how about the smaller blades? IMO the waves of these large flamberge swords were more aesthetic - the symbol of Archangel Michael's flaming sword in battle would be an awesome sight- than functional. Is the parying advantage of the wavy blades that important, or is it negligible? Regards, Manolo

1st February 2006, 07:33 AM	#2
Radu Transylvanicus Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: 2008-2010 Bali, 1998-2008 USA Posts: 271	CONCLUSION - ITS MORE FOR THE ESTHETICS ! Unless any groundbreaking info, its a closed chapter !

1st February 2006, 08:09 AM	#3
MABAGANI Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 221	I'm not sure you can throw every blade with a wave in the same category as a "fashion or esthetic statement". The Moro kris "swords" with or without waves were both effective combat weapon, maybe more a matter of form and fighting preference.

1st February 2006, 10:43 AM	#4
Radu Transylvanicus Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: 2008-2010 Bali, 1998-2008 USA Posts: 271	Mabagani, with all respect to the traditional or spiritual, does a waved blade inflict a deeper cut, a longer cut or presents any advantages other than visual over the classic cutting edge? I find elements like weight, shape, curvature, length, sharpness, material type to make a crucial difference but a waved edge does not seem to change eficacity. The most honest working waved blades I see it in the Moro Keris and the Landesknecht which seem to not loose their capacity of combat eficiency but those like some African or Hindo-Persian weapons have nothing but to loose by keeping the blade shape in cause and so far I am convinced its nothing but a matter of esthetics, likely the case with absolutelly all of them. In the case of the Moro (Tausug) blades is there any action or effect waved ones can inflict and the others cannot ? Waved blades have nothing in common with saw or serrated blades in case anyone tries to open that up...

3rd February 2006, 07:48 PM	#8
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,320	I'm inclined to agree with Mabagani. Against flesh a glancing blow with a kris could seem like large saw teeth, but the problem is the bouncing affect, especially against any armour (which only datus could afford). But against multiple opponents one would not want to spend too much time making too deep of cuts on any one person but hit as many as possible multiple times. Depends on the style and the skills of the warrior in question.

2nd February 2006, 07:12 PM	#10
Radu Transylvanicus Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: 2008-2010 Bali, 1998-2008 USA Posts: 271	Welcome, welcome ... The arguments not the accusations, please... Point the theory not the finger, dear ol' chap I opened the discussion, remember? Its true, I cannot expect anyone to sacrifice his old weapon or worse God forbid his limbs, (any volunteers? ) I dont think much ground has been covered on testing such blades. And I doubt battle accounts in the matter are written on paper... One thing for sure, a waved blade must be a lot harder to sharpen evenly...

2nd February 2006, 11:19 PM	#11
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Sorry Radu, i wasn't trying to do any finger pointing. Of course i remember that you opened the thread. That's why i was wondering why you were trying to close it out so quickly. Generally that's what i assume when someone says,"...it's a closed chapter." You are probably right, it might be a lot harder to sharpen a wavy blade evenly. But somehow the Moro know the trick because my wavy example is sharp as a razor all along it's length. Perhaps testing could be done on materials that approximate the texture and hardness of flesh. Anyone have any ideas?

12th February 2006, 05:18 AM	#13
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,196	One could always test some of the theories out on a helpless cassaba melon or two! I remember that Alfred Hitchcock used cassaba melons being stabbed to simulate the sound of a perforating knife in the original Psycho movie. In my opinion, there's no question of the damage a Moro kriss, wavy or straight, could do to a man (case in point, American GI's during the Spanish American war). As far as serrated weapons go, I remember a discussion from a number of years back concerning Kingsmill Island swords (tebutji?) with the shark teeth and quite a few varying opinions. For my part, I have taken a saw and wacked off a smaller tree limb and the saw bit pretty deep into the bark as well (probably as deep as many swords I've welded). That being said, i could see where a curved blade would be totally impractical on horseback as it might bite deep and not pull free. Does anyone feel that a wavy bladed sword might have a tendency to stick in a chest cavity more than a straight blade? Just curious...