Indian pseudoshashka

Jim McDougall · 19th May 2016, 06:32 PM

Ibrahiim, nicely done finding that example and noting the comparative prospects with yataghan gestalt. It is truly a weapon worth discussing and evaluating further rather than dismissing it as some sort of hodgepodge. I know I have seen something similar but have yet to find it, and it seems there are is a group of sabre types which look as if they are typical sabre hilts sans their guards.

I am with Ariel in his assessments on this being a genuinely fabricated older (certainly 19th c) weapon. These kinds of hybrids have always had some degree of presence in ethnographic weapons, as innovative armorers often used whatever materials and components they had at hand.

The use of 'pseudo' in terming these weapons or for that matter any weapon form is not really in my opinion acceptable, as it implies direct connection between forms which may not have any direct or linear connection. For example, in the case of the Bukharen sabres without guard, according to well informed authorities are not at all developed from shashkas, which has sometimes been suggested. This carries into the Afghan/Uzbek case as well though obviously there must be some degree of influence present.

I think that Russian presence in these Central Asian regions certainly must have had certain impacts, if only temporal, and of course in the latter part of the century, Caucasian shashkas were known in Russian forces.

What is interesting in this example is the clearly fashioned tunkou, which compellingly recalls yataghan or Ottoman influence also very much present in degree. The ricasso recalls Indian blade forms coupled with the sweeping radius of the shamshir

Interesting weapon, and perfect for sword forum discussion!!!

ariel · 20th May 2016, 02:48 AM

Ibrahiim,

Here is my version of your request:
IMHO, Bukharan ( not Afghani, as per Lebedinsky!) pseudoshashkas ( sorry for a totally inappropriate term, but for want of a better one...) derive their origin not from the shashkas of Russian invaders and subsequent occupants, but from Khybers or their earlier analogs. Here is the series of graded modifications: classical Khyber at the top, early Bukharan " shashka" in the middle ( straight blade, almost triangular geometry) and classical Bukharan "shashka" ( slightly curved blade, almost "hatchet" point). The last two swords are attributed to Bukhara ( more precisely Central Asia) partly by the characteristic feature of 5 rivets ( 2x1X2).

Jim,

In a little while a paper one of my Russian colleagues and I have written together will appear in a major arms history journal. It will be dealing with the origin of yataghan blades and a large part of it will be referring to tunkou, the heretofore forgotten or neglected element of Ottoman yataghans.
Just in brief, it is not an inherently Ottoman, but a Turkic element, tracing back to nomads, Seljuks and Mongols included. This is why we see it or its renditions on some Persian and Indo-Persian blades and even in some very early European iconographic sources.

And I completely agree with Ibrahiim's point: the eared pommel of Caucasian shashka likely stems from the same element of the Ottoman yataghans.

ariel · 11th July 2016, 04:51 PM

For those who assumed that this bizarre hodge-podge of different styles was a unique example, here is another one, just ended on Dan Morphy's auction.

We seem to be talking about a rare pattern.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 13th July 2016, 01:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

For those who assumed that this bizarre hodge-podge of different styles was a unique example, here is another one, just ended on Dan Morphy's auction.

We seem to be talking about a rare pattern.

Keep it coming Ariel ... This is an amazing thread.

ariel · 13th July 2016, 02:56 AM

How funny: the same pattern is discussed here

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...d=1#post203006

Perhaps, merging the threads might be in order?

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 13th July 2016, 08:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

How funny: the same pattern is discussed here

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...d=1#post203006

Perhaps, merging the threads might be in order?

I agree Ariel... These are surely the same form....or am I losing the plot??

kai · 15th July 2016, 02:22 AM

Hello Ariel,

Thanks for bringing these up! Did you won the first example?

I agree that the hilt of both sabres seem to be of the same type and possibly related to the hilt type in the other thread. A probable third example got posted there and I'm attaching it below for reference (with the brass fittings and apparently different workmanship it may be more recent).

Do the blades and the single scabbard allow any attribution? Any feature that doesn't fit with a Deccani origin?

All hilts are fastened with 3 rivets and seem to be of full tang construction. It is interesting that the first example seems to represent a bird's head while the third is much more abstract and the second one seems to approach the more bulbous pommel style. The langet-like feature seems to be separate from the bolster+guard in the first example.

I'm not sure that merging both threads is going to help our ongoing discussion; especially, since we haven't yet established that these really share the same origin. The cross-referencing should do for directing attention to the possibly related threads, I guess.

Regards,
Kai

20th May 2016, 02:48 AM	#2
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Ibrahiim, Here is my version of your request: IMHO, Bukharan ( not Afghani, as per Lebedinsky!) pseudoshashkas ( sorry for a totally inappropriate term, but for want of a better one...) derive their origin not from the shashkas of Russian invaders and subsequent occupants, but from Khybers or their earlier analogs. Here is the series of graded modifications: classical Khyber at the top, early Bukharan " shashka" in the middle ( straight blade, almost triangular geometry) and classical Bukharan "shashka" ( slightly curved blade, almost "hatchet" point). The last two swords are attributed to Bukhara ( more precisely Central Asia) partly by the characteristic feature of 5 rivets ( 2x1X2). Jim, In a little while a paper one of my Russian colleagues and I have written together will appear in a major arms history journal. It will be dealing with the origin of yataghan blades and a large part of it will be referring to tunkou, the heretofore forgotten or neglected element of Ottoman yataghans. Just in brief, it is not an inherently Ottoman, but a Turkic element, tracing back to nomads, Seljuks and Mongols included. This is why we see it or its renditions on some Persian and Indo-Persian blades and even in some very early European iconographic sources. And I completely agree with Ibrahiim's point: the eared pommel of Caucasian shashka likely stems from the same element of the Ottoman yataghans. Attached Images Last edited by ariel; 20th May 2016 at 11:57 AM.

11th July 2016, 04:51 PM	#3
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	For those who assumed that this bizarre hodge-podge of different styles was a unique example, here is another one, just ended on Dan Morphy's auction. We seem to be talking about a rare pattern. Attached Images

15th July 2016, 02:22 AM	#7
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,255	Hello Ariel, Thanks for bringing these up! Did you won the first example? I agree that the hilt of both sabres seem to be of the same type and possibly related to the hilt type in the other thread. A probable third example got posted there and I'm attaching it below for reference (with the brass fittings and apparently different workmanship it may be more recent). Do the blades and the single scabbard allow any attribution? Any feature that doesn't fit with a Deccani origin? All hilts are fastened with 3 rivets and seem to be of full tang construction. It is interesting that the first example seems to represent a bird's head while the third is much more abstract and the second one seems to approach the more bulbous pommel style. The langet-like feature seems to be separate from the bolster+guard in the first example. I'm not sure that merging both threads is going to help our ongoing discussion; especially, since we haven't yet established that these really share the same origin. The cross-referencing should do for directing attention to the possibly related threads, I guess. Regards, Kai Attached Images

19th May 2016, 06:32 PM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	Ibrahiim, nicely done finding that example and noting the comparative prospects with yataghan gestalt. It is truly a weapon worth discussing and evaluating further rather than dismissing it as some sort of hodgepodge. I know I have seen something similar but have yet to find it, and it seems there are is a group of sabre types which look as if they are typical sabre hilts sans their guards. I am with Ariel in his assessments on this being a genuinely fabricated older (certainly 19th c) weapon. These kinds of hybrids have always had some degree of presence in ethnographic weapons, as innovative armorers often used whatever materials and components they had at hand. The use of 'pseudo' in terming these weapons or for that matter any weapon form is not really in my opinion acceptable, as it implies direct connection between forms which may not have any direct or linear connection. For example, in the case of the Bukharen sabres without guard, according to well informed authorities are not at all developed from shashkas, which has sometimes been suggested. This carries into the Afghan/Uzbek case as well though obviously there must be some degree of influence present. I think that Russian presence in these Central Asian regions certainly must have had certain impacts, if only temporal, and of course in the latter part of the century, Caucasian shashkas were known in Russian forces. What is interesting in this example is the clearly fashioned tunkou, which compellingly recalls yataghan or Ottoman influence also very much present in degree. The ricasso recalls Indian blade forms coupled with the sweeping radius of the shamshir Interesting weapon, and perfect for sword forum discussion!!!

13th July 2016, 02:56 AM	#5
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	How funny: the same pattern is discussed here http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...d=1#post203006 Perhaps, merging the threads might be in order?