British Naval Officer's Blue & Gilt Dirk

David · 11th May 2016, 02:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

I wouldn't think so, David but ...

What would you think then Fernando?

David · 11th May 2016, 02:49 AM

Here is an article on the Paschal Lamb as it relates to freemasonry.
http://www.myfreemasonry.com/threads...al-lamb.22916/

David · 11th May 2016, 03:03 AM

If you scroll down a bit in this article you can see how the seven-pointed star, also shown on this blade, is used in freemasonry.
http://dcsymbols.com/officers/officers.htm
In freemasonry the rooster symbolizes the mercurial principle as explained in this article on the Chamber of Reflections.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chamber_of_Reflection
I suspect that what looks like an iron cross on this blade is really meant to be the Cross Pattée, symbol of the Order of the Temple.
So i can connect every single symbol on this blade to a significant symbol in freemasonry, but maybe that is just a coincidence...

Richard G · 11th May 2016, 02:24 PM

There is also the 'Tyler's sword'.
The "Tyler', apparently, is a masonic official who originally stood guard outside a meeting of mason's (particularly if in a semi-public space, like a room at an Inn etc.) in order keep away non-masons and eavesdroppers, armed with a sword.
Regards
Richard

thinreadline · 19th May 2016, 08:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

If you scroll down a bit in this article you can see how the seven-pointed star, also shown on this blade, is used in freemasonry.
http://dcsymbols.com/officers/officers.htm
In freemasonry the rooster symbolizes the mercurial principle as explained in this article on the Chamber of Reflections.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chamber_of_Reflection
I suspect that what looks like an iron cross on this blade is really meant to be the Cross Pattée, symbol of the Order of the Temple.
So i can connect every single symbol on this blade to a significant symbol in freemasonry, but maybe that is just a coincidence...

But David, is not the star on the sword 8 pointed rather than 7 ?

Cathey · 18th June 2016, 07:43 AM

Hi guys

thankyou for confirming my first thought that this dirk had a masonic connection. Speaking to a friend who happens to be a retired naval officer he advised that such Dirks are not unusual as the Free Masons had strong ties with military and in particular the Navy. I found one other example of this dirk, although in poor condition come up for sale through the dealer Sailor in Saddle.

From what I have been able to find out the royal Naval lodge was founded in 1739, the symbology of the Nile medal was redolent of Masonry and Nelson was admitted to the Ancient Order of Gregorians in 1801. It would be interesting to find out more about the link with Freemasons and Nelsons Navy.

Cheers

Cathey and Rex

fernando · 18th June 2016, 12:20 PM

You are most probably aware of the following:

http://www.lodgestpatrick.co.nz/lordnelson.php

Jim McDougall · 18th June 2016, 05:50 PM

As always, Cathey posts fascinating examples that promote great discussions, and this one has been outstanding, not just for the intriguing subject matter, but the teamwork in sharing and observing details.

The Masonic theme in weaponry has been a constant fascination for many years, but often somewhat overlooked. In this case, the Masonic symbols placed in the motif of this dirk are not only obvious but compelling .

It often amazes me at just how thoroughly Freemasonry has permeated historic figures and events as well as the cultures of their times. Presently we are travelling through the Southwest, and even in these 'Wild West' cow towns the Masonic mystique prevailed. Coincidentally I was just researching some Masonic swords in a small museum in one in Arizona, where the primary focus was of course gunfighters and such history related to the OK Corral.
Here, along with the fabled six shooters, were a number of clearly Masonic swords, belonging to prominent figures in the town (not the gunfighters of course

.

Returning to Nelson and the Dirk in discussion. It is important to remember that Freemasonry was of course prevalent in military context as typically officers were of the gentry or varying levels of peerage. This being the case, naturally many, if not most, were highly involved in Masonic activity.
I suspect that in many cases, Masonic allegiance was predominant as there were certainly indistinct ties between members of lodges in France, and Great Britain.

Regarding Masonic related decoration and styling, it seems that in the neo classic styles in many edged weapons of the latter 18th century may have had even more subtle nuance, for example the 'five ball hilt' type of officers spadroon of 1780 +. These apparently evolved in England, but later, in a remarkable instance, were adopted in France as similar hilts termed as l'Anglaise.
In research many years ago, I thought that perhaps the 'balls' or 'beads' incorporated in the hilt elements may have had numeric significance, particularly in a Masonic sense with the number 5 . In France others had sometimes 7, but again, symbolism?
These ideas were inconclusive, and even Robson discounted the idea, thinking the decoration was simply aesthetic.
Still, as more Masonic themes become apparent, I still wonder.

fernando · 11th May 2016, 02:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

What would you think then Fernando?

I would not stress the tone of my approach in 'would' but in but ...
This meaning that, i was convinced that the Agnus Dei an the prayer derived from John 1:29 writing, both which i am familiar with since childhood, were something that did not (also) figure in other creed's symbology ... but i stood for the benefit of doubt.
Now i am enlightened; no further issue to be inferred

.

11th May 2016, 03:03 AM	#3
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,211	If you scroll down a bit in this article you can see how the seven-pointed star, also shown on this blade, is used in freemasonry. http://dcsymbols.com/officers/officers.htm In freemasonry the rooster symbolizes the mercurial principle as explained in this article on the Chamber of Reflections. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chamber_of_Reflection I suspect that what looks like an iron cross on this blade is really meant to be the Cross Pattée, symbol of the Order of the Temple. So i can connect every single symbol on this blade to a significant symbol in freemasonry, but maybe that is just a coincidence... Attached Images

18th June 2016, 07:43 AM	#6
Cathey Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: adelaide south australia Posts: 284	Masonic Naval Dirk Hi guys thankyou for confirming my first thought that this dirk had a masonic connection. Speaking to a friend who happens to be a retired naval officer he advised that such Dirks are not unusual as the Free Masons had strong ties with military and in particular the Navy. I found one other example of this dirk, although in poor condition come up for sale through the dealer Sailor in Saddle. From what I have been able to find out the royal Naval lodge was founded in 1739, the symbology of the Nile medal was redolent of Masonry and Nelson was admitted to the Ancient Order of Gregorians in 1801. It would be interesting to find out more about the link with Freemasons and Nelsons Navy. Cheers Cathey and Rex

11th May 2016, 02:49 AM	#2
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,211	Here is an article on the Paschal Lamb as it relates to freemasonry. http://www.myfreemasonry.com/threads...al-lamb.22916/

11th May 2016, 02:24 PM	#4
Richard G Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 409	There is also the 'Tyler's sword'. The "Tyler', apparently, is a masonic official who originally stood guard outside a meeting of mason's (particularly if in a semi-public space, like a room at an Inn etc.) in order keep away non-masons and eavesdroppers, armed with a sword. Regards Richard

18th June 2016, 12:20 PM	#7
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	You are most probably aware of the following: http://www.lodgestpatrick.co.nz/lordnelson.php

18th June 2016, 05:50 PM	#8
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,194	As always, Cathey posts fascinating examples that promote great discussions, and this one has been outstanding, not just for the intriguing subject matter, but the teamwork in sharing and observing details. The Masonic theme in weaponry has been a constant fascination for many years, but often somewhat overlooked. In this case, the Masonic symbols placed in the motif of this dirk are not only obvious but compelling . It often amazes me at just how thoroughly Freemasonry has permeated historic figures and events as well as the cultures of their times. Presently we are travelling through the Southwest, and even in these 'Wild West' cow towns the Masonic mystique prevailed. Coincidentally I was just researching some Masonic swords in a small museum in one in Arizona, where the primary focus was of course gunfighters and such history related to the OK Corral. Here, along with the fabled six shooters, were a number of clearly Masonic swords, belonging to prominent figures in the town (not the gunfighters of course . Returning to Nelson and the Dirk in discussion. It is important to remember that Freemasonry was of course prevalent in military context as typically officers were of the gentry or varying levels of peerage. This being the case, naturally many, if not most, were highly involved in Masonic activity. I suspect that in many cases, Masonic allegiance was predominant as there were certainly indistinct ties between members of lodges in France, and Great Britain. Regarding Masonic related decoration and styling, it seems that in the neo classic styles in many edged weapons of the latter 18th century may have had even more subtle nuance, for example the 'five ball hilt' type of officers spadroon of 1780 +. These apparently evolved in England, but later, in a remarkable instance, were adopted in France as similar hilts termed as l'Anglaise. In research many years ago, I thought that perhaps the 'balls' or 'beads' incorporated in the hilt elements may have had numeric significance, particularly in a Masonic sense with the number 5 . In France others had sometimes 7, but again, symbolism? These ideas were inconclusive, and even Robson discounted the idea, thinking the decoration was simply aesthetic. Still, as more Masonic themes become apparent, I still wonder.