“Old Javanese Gold: The Hunter Thompson Collection,” Yale University Art Gallery

Gustav · 30th April 2016, 02:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rasdan

Speaking of pendongkok, to digress a bit, earlier this month I came to know that a person here in Malaysia found a gold pendongkok with ruby 4 feet in the ground using a metal detector. The weight is about 60 grams with 8 large rubies each encircled with another 8 smaller rubies. 2 of the rubies are missing. I should really purchase a metal detector to start a new hobby.

Here are the images from this person's Facebook. His name is Raja Kamaruzaman.

Thank you for posting these, Rasdan! It actually should be a topic for a new thread. The early Gowa/Makassar hilts with specific Selut could indeed be a type, which started in Majapahit time and are spread to countries which stood in tributary contacts with Majapahit. Later there are locally made copies of these in Central Sumatra, Sulawesi and Sumbawa.

The treatment of motifs at the base of some of these hilts could indeed serve as an example of an early stage of development of these motifs, perhaps the earliest still graspable.

rasdan · 30th April 2016, 06:14 PM

No problem Gustav.

I put it here because I don't have many info about it. Just the pictures. Anyhow, I'll update you guys if any more info on this pendongkok surfaced.

David · 30th April 2016, 09:50 PM

Gustav, thanks for posting these larger photos of this hilt. They are much easier to read than the small ones in the book.

A. G. Maisey · 1st May 2016, 01:32 AM

Gustav, just to set the record straight, what I wrote in post # 8 was this:-

"--- Stylistically this hilt seems to be Majapahit.
Personally, I would not question it---"

I have restricted my comments to stylistic attributions.

I have made no attempt to affix a date to this hilt, and I will not do so.

Why?

Because in my opinion this is close to absolutely impossible.

Stylistically it may be attributed to Majapahit, but the year of manufacture could be any time from the early 1300's through to the modern era.

In my initial post of several years ago I was very cautious in my reluctance to commit to any actual dates, and my attitudes on trying to affix dates in the Western sense to some Javanese artefacts have only become more inflexible since I wrote my first post.

I'm not going to get involved in the game of providing indicators in order to support my opinion that this hilt is stylistically Majapahit. This is not at all the way in which I form an opinion on what I believe to be the applicable style for any Javanese art or architecture. I have my own area of speciality, and that speciality does not include in depth training in Javanese art history, thus, when I wish to form an opinion in respect of the particular style of any Javanese artefact, with the exception of the keris, I use the works of people who are recognised authorities in this field. John Miksic is one such authority.

I have no intention at all of getting involved in any defence of Miksic's ideas, however, I will mention in passing that his stylistic attributions do not seem to be at variance with most of the other recognised authorities in this field.

If you believe that you have found a way to demonstrate that his stylistic attribution of this hilt to Majapahit is incorrect, why not write to him? Over the years I have written to a number of recognised authorities in a number of fields, in fact I have even phoned them, and in general I have found these very well known people to be quite receptive to new ideas. I believe that one of the indicators of a believable and reliable authority is that he or she has the ability to change his or her mind as new evidence becomes available.

If you have new evidence, present it to Miksic and suggest that he consider it.

Edit --- Just an after-thought Gustav:- rather than approaching John Miksic, you might find Pauline Lunsingh Scheurleer a better bet.
I believe her level of expertise in Old Javanese stylistic differentiation is probably about as good as it gets.

David · 1st May 2016, 02:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gustav

Thank you for posting these, Rasdan! It actually should be a topic for a new thread.

I have to agree with Gustav here. Post this on a separate thread so that it gets the attention it deserves.
Gonna have to get myself one of them damnfangled metal detectors...

1st May 2016, 01:32 AM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,019	Gustav, just to set the record straight, what I wrote in post # 8 was this:- "--- Stylistically this hilt seems to be Majapahit. Personally, I would not question it---" I have restricted my comments to stylistic attributions. I have made no attempt to affix a date to this hilt, and I will not do so. Why? Because in my opinion this is close to absolutely impossible. Stylistically it may be attributed to Majapahit, but the year of manufacture could be any time from the early 1300's through to the modern era. In my initial post of several years ago I was very cautious in my reluctance to commit to any actual dates, and my attitudes on trying to affix dates in the Western sense to some Javanese artefacts have only become more inflexible since I wrote my first post. I'm not going to get involved in the game of providing indicators in order to support my opinion that this hilt is stylistically Majapahit. This is not at all the way in which I form an opinion on what I believe to be the applicable style for any Javanese art or architecture. I have my own area of speciality, and that speciality does not include in depth training in Javanese art history, thus, when I wish to form an opinion in respect of the particular style of any Javanese artefact, with the exception of the keris, I use the works of people who are recognised authorities in this field. John Miksic is one such authority. I have no intention at all of getting involved in any defence of Miksic's ideas, however, I will mention in passing that his stylistic attributions do not seem to be at variance with most of the other recognised authorities in this field. If you believe that you have found a way to demonstrate that his stylistic attribution of this hilt to Majapahit is incorrect, why not write to him? Over the years I have written to a number of recognised authorities in a number of fields, in fact I have even phoned them, and in general I have found these very well known people to be quite receptive to new ideas. I believe that one of the indicators of a believable and reliable authority is that he or she has the ability to change his or her mind as new evidence becomes available. If you have new evidence, present it to Miksic and suggest that he consider it. Edit --- Just an after-thought Gustav:- rather than approaching John Miksic, you might find Pauline Lunsingh Scheurleer a better bet. I believe her level of expertise in Old Javanese stylistic differentiation is probably about as good as it gets. Last edited by A. G. Maisey; 1st May 2016 at 03:10 AM. Reason: After-thought

30th April 2016, 06:14 PM	#2
rasdan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kuala Lumpur Posts: 369	No problem Gustav. I put it here because I don't have many info about it. Just the pictures. Anyhow, I'll update you guys if any more info on this pendongkok surfaced.

30th April 2016, 09:50 PM	#3
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,218	Gustav, thanks for posting these larger photos of this hilt. They are much easier to read than the small ones in the book.