Seeking Help with Blade Marks

fernando · 28th April 2016, 01:01 PM

Hi Cathey,
I regret that, up to now, you don't have a precise decoding of the whole inscription. For me, the non deciphering of a mark is like loosing a battle.
Whether the two first letters (LS) could be the initials of the blade smith, or part of the whole inscription setup, is something yet to discover. Amazing that MINI, a term close to more often seen IN MENE, has for some sources the same representation, while for others, MINI is short for IN NOMINE DOMINI, so a an abreviation of "In the name of God", while (IN) MENE could be translated as "numbered or accounted for", an ancient term used to show fear from God; in the more dramatic interpretation "God has numbered your kingdom and put an end to it".
Maybe within time some member comes up to enlighten you (us).

Jim McDougall · 28th April 2016, 09:04 PM

Cathey, I just wanted to update the research I have been working on concerning the marks on your blade. Actually these marks or more accurately, inscription, are not likely to represent a particular maker of your blade. As I indicated in my earlier post, I think your assessment of latter 17th century and a transitional rapier blade is well placed.

There would seem to be little doubt this is a Solingen product, but interpreting the actual meaning of these letters is more of a conundrum.
The authors Wagner, Worley, Blennow and Beckenholmen in their 2009 article, "Medieval Christian Invocation Inscriptions on Sword Blades" (Waffen und Kostumkunde, 51(1), pp11-52) claim,
"...maybe these inscriptions are early examples of a mixture between vernacular and Latin elements as an imitation or reinterpretation of older blades whose strongly abbreviated inscriptions were incomprehensible to the contemporaries". (p.38)

While obviously this perspective refers to much earlier blades however I think the same axiom applies.

As I also mentioned in my earlier post, a curved blade mounted in a cast brass 18th c. hilt has the inscription:
X EN X MENE XX
(posted by Fernando 12Dec 2007)

This exemplar clearly iilustrates similar type inscriptions were used by apparent Solingen makers in the 18th c. thus most certainly some time earlier. While the term 'mene' is Latin, the 'en' seems to represent Spanish for 'in' while German would be 'ihn',

The term 'mena' could also refer to 'numbered' as with ancient Jewish coins as described in "Belshazzars Feast " (Daniel 5: 30-31) which includes the passages of 'the writing on the wall', " MENE MENE TEKEL PARSIN".

The 'mena' also was termed 'mina' in it seems various instances.

The term 'MINE' could refer to the Papal Bull of 1059, IN NOMINE DOMINI, which dealt with Canonical law .

Wagner and Worley note that the formulae (In Nomine Domine) and cross potent appear consistently in invocation lines of almost all diplomata (legal acts).

While more tenuous, Wagner and Worley (op cit. p.46, #61) note that the letters I S represent abbreviated Latin word 'ius' (= right, law).
Is it possible this LS might be IS or related ?

Further.......L.S. = locum sigillis, or place of the seal. Appended to
signature of legal documents.

It is doubtful that LS would be the initials of a maker as they would not be part of the configuration of such an invocation .

The 'anchor' just as the cross in these kinds of invocations was used to enhance or emphasize the talismanic power or imbuement in such inscriptions and invocations.

While certainly these details are entirely circumstantial and cannot offer, or enlighten the dilemma of any accurate translation of meaning in this case,
it is the best I can come up with. As seen in the resources I have noted, as well as others such as Wallace Collection (Mann, 1962); Oakeshott (1961) et al. ..most of the interpretation of these kinds of inscriptions is largely supposed, with a lesser number accurately recorded.

Richard G · 30th April 2016, 01:02 PM

I don't mean to disparage Cathey's eyesight, but from the photo's I would have read this as xx LS x XISI xx. I realise the second S is different from the first, but could the first be an N? Anyway, If this was so, would it make any interpretation easier?
Regards
Richard

cornelistromp · 1st May 2016, 10:27 AM

IX XINI

is the name (of a bay and) watch tower build in 1661 on the Maltese island of Gozo, ruled by the Order of Saint John, this is one of the last build towers which served as a safe harbour for visiting ships and to protect and safeguard the bay and the Gozo Island.
Malta was ruled by the Order of Saint John under Sicily from 1530 to 1798.

best,
Jasper

fernando · 1st May 2016, 04:10 PM

Excelent shot Jasper but ... do you mean to say those are (all) the letters inscribed in Cathey's blade ?

cornelistromp · 5th May 2016, 02:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

Excelent shot Jasper but ... do you mean to say those are (all) the letters inscribed in Cathey's blade ?

Hi Fernando,
yes I read IX XINI

best,

fernando · 5th May 2016, 05:38 PM

Duly noted, Jasper.

MVG

28th April 2016, 09:04 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,670	Cathey, I just wanted to update the research I have been working on concerning the marks on your blade. Actually these marks or more accurately, inscription, are not likely to represent a particular maker of your blade. As I indicated in my earlier post, I think your assessment of latter 17th century and a transitional rapier blade is well placed. There would seem to be little doubt this is a Solingen product, but interpreting the actual meaning of these letters is more of a conundrum. The authors Wagner, Worley, Blennow and Beckenholmen in their 2009 article, "Medieval Christian Invocation Inscriptions on Sword Blades" (Waffen und Kostumkunde, 51(1), pp11-52) claim, "...maybe these inscriptions are early examples of a mixture between vernacular and Latin elements as an imitation or reinterpretation of older blades whose strongly abbreviated inscriptions were incomprehensible to the contemporaries". (p.38) While obviously this perspective refers to much earlier blades however I think the same axiom applies. As I also mentioned in my earlier post, a curved blade mounted in a cast brass 18th c. hilt has the inscription: X EN X MENE XX (posted by Fernando 12Dec 2007) This exemplar clearly iilustrates similar type inscriptions were used by apparent Solingen makers in the 18th c. thus most certainly some time earlier. While the term 'mene' is Latin, the 'en' seems to represent Spanish for 'in' while German would be 'ihn', The term 'mena' could also refer to 'numbered' as with ancient Jewish coins as described in "Belshazzars Feast " (Daniel 5: 30-31) which includes the passages of 'the writing on the wall', " MENE MENE TEKEL PARSIN". The 'mena' also was termed 'mina' in it seems various instances. The term 'MINE' could refer to the Papal Bull of 1059, IN NOMINE DOMINI, which dealt with Canonical law . Wagner and Worley note that the formulae (In Nomine Domine) and cross potent appear consistently in invocation lines of almost all diplomata (legal acts). While more tenuous, Wagner and Worley (op cit. p.46, #61) note that the letters I S represent abbreviated Latin word 'ius' (= right, law). Is it possible this LS might be IS or related ? Further.......L.S. = locum sigillis, or place of the seal. Appended to signature of legal documents. It is doubtful that LS would be the initials of a maker as they would not be part of the configuration of such an invocation . The 'anchor' just as the cross in these kinds of invocations was used to enhance or emphasize the talismanic power or imbuement in such inscriptions and invocations. While certainly these details are entirely circumstantial and cannot offer, or enlighten the dilemma of any accurate translation of meaning in this case, it is the best I can come up with. As seen in the resources I have noted, as well as others such as Wallace Collection (Mann, 1962); Oakeshott (1961) et al. ..most of the interpretation of these kinds of inscriptions is largely supposed, with a lesser number accurately recorded. Last edited by Jim McDougall; 30th April 2016 at 03:52 AM.

1st May 2016, 10:27 AM	#4
cornelistromp Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,064	IX XINI is the name (of a bay and) watch tower build in 1661 on the Maltese island of Gozo, ruled by the Order of Saint John, this is one of the last build towers which served as a safe harbour for visiting ships and to protect and safeguard the bay and the Gozo Island. Malta was ruled by the Order of Saint John under Sicily from 1530 to 1798. best, Jasper Last edited by cornelistromp; 1st May 2016 at 10:55 AM.

28th April 2016, 01:01 PM	#1
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Hi Cathey, I regret that, up to now, you don't have a precise decoding of the whole inscription. For me, the non deciphering of a mark is like loosing a battle. Whether the two first letters (LS) could be the initials of the blade smith, or part of the whole inscription setup, is something yet to discover. Amazing that MINI, a term close to more often seen IN MENE, has for some sources the same representation, while for others, MINI is short for IN NOMINE DOMINI, so a an abreviation of "In the name of God", while (IN) MENE could be translated as "numbered or accounted for", an ancient term used to show fear from God; in the more dramatic interpretation "God has numbered your kingdom and put an end to it". Maybe within time some member comes up to enlighten you (us).

30th April 2016, 01:02 PM	#3
Richard G Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 415	I don't mean to disparage Cathey's eyesight, but from the photo's I would have read this as xx LS x XISI xx. I realise the second S is different from the first, but could the first be an N? Anyway, If this was so, would it make any interpretation easier? Regards Richard

1st May 2016, 04:10 PM	#5
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Excelent shot Jasper but ... do you mean to say those are (all) the letters inscribed in Cathey's blade ?

5th May 2016, 05:38 PM	#7
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Duly noted, Jasper. MVG