Figural horn (possibly rhino) hilt

A. G. Maisey · 18th April 2016, 11:45 AM

Thank you Gustav.

Jean, I would be extremely reluctant to identify the form of the nose, or of the ears, or of any other part of this hilt as indicative of age.

Why?

Because current era carvings of this hilt form are, in general, copies of earlier hilts, sometimes fragmented earlier hilts, but those earlier hilts themselves were again copies of hilts that came down from a previous time.

The cheap modern productions that we generally see are turned out like Bali art carvings, but the high quality hilts made by m'ranggis use patterns and models that have been in the craftsman's family for generations. Certainly, these vary, but they vary in accordance with what one m'ranngi's family carves, as opposed to what another family carves.

Yes, the an acceptable reading of the abstraction between the figure's knees is of his reproductive organs, however, we must never forget that we are dealing with a society that is based upon death and renewal, so the way in which this symbolism is read can often be a little bit too simplistic.

When we consider the tumpal it is important to understand that an upright tumpal is representative of the gunungan and all associated icons, and also of the male element. The inverted tumpal is symbolic of the female element. The small yoni inserted in the base of the tumpal completes the Hindu-Javanese iconography of the Lingga-Yoni.

There are a number of ways that this symbolism can be interpreted, but it is perhaps sufficient to recognise that it is representive of Siwa's Shakti, Siwa himself being represented by the gunungan.

As a complete entity of lingga-yoni we have the symbolism of continual renewal --- plus a whole heap of other symbols.

What I've written above is all well known, nothing new or special there, but Gustav's words intrigued me, so I eagerly await his response.

kai · 18th April 2016, 12:38 PM

Hello Alan,

Quote:

the high quality hilts made by m'ranggis use patterns and models that have been in the craftsman's family for generations. Certainly, these vary, but they vary in accordance with what one m'ranngi's family carves, as opposed to what another family carves.

Do you possibly have any examples (carved during the last 100-200 years by traditional mranggi families) of these archaic styles/patterns that appear to be characteristic of the "Kunstkammer" keris? While I realize that traditional pre-WW2 (or possibly even extant) hilt carving is (often) based on very old patterns, I have gained the impression that the early hilts had features that got obsolete (possibly culturally inappropiate or, less likely, merely out of fashion) in the following centuries.

As Gustav (and Karsten) already pointed out, there are only a few extant examples that appear to be early collected. If you know of any similar ones from later periods, this would certainly be really important for the current working hyotheses.

Regards,
Kai

David · 18th April 2016, 05:08 PM

Kai, here are a couple of examples which i am sure have been carved within the last 100 years. To my eye you can still see aspects of the lingam/yoni symbolism in the tumpals carved here.
I am also including a front shot of the older example i showed earlier for a comparison of the tumpals used there. I am uncertain of the actual age of this hilt.

kai · 19th April 2016, 01:20 PM

Hello David,

Quote:

here are a couple of examples which i am sure have been carved within the last 100 years. To my eye you can still see aspects of the lingam/yoni symbolism in the tumpals carved here.

Yes, these 2 do qualify as modern. Very similar workmanship, indeed.

While it is evident that these are offspring of the old style hilts, it's not about the similarity (nor quality of workmanship) but rather differences in detail.

Quote:

I am also including a front shot of the older example i showed earlier for a comparison of the tumpals used there. I am uncertain of the actual age of this hilt.

Thanks, a really nice one! This "man in green" style makes it even more difficult to place (and the wear doesn't help either to discern details).

We need close-ups from all sides of this hilt for analysis. It might be older than you think...

Regards,
Kai

David · 19th April 2016, 02:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kai

Yes, these 2 do qualify as modern. Very similar workmanship, indeed.
While it is evident that these are offspring of the old style hilts, it's not about the similarity (nor quality of workmanship) but rather differences in detail.

Well, i only posted these hilts because Gustav seemed to be implying that the lingam/yoni symbolism is not to be found in the tumpal of "modern" versions of these hilts. While stylized i maintain that symbolism is indeed present in these examples. I have seen many other more modern versions where it is not.

Quote:

Originally Posted by kai

Thanks, a really nice one! This "man in green" style makes it even more difficult to place (and the wear doesn't help either to discern details).
We need close-ups from all sides of this hilt for analysis. It might be older than you think...

I don't really want to detract from this thread too much by posting a series of images of this hilt. While worn it does seem to also incorporate the lingam/yoni into the tumpal. However, i have posted all sides of it before so you can check this thread out if you want a closer look. I am aware that it is pretty old.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ight=buta+hilt

Gustav · 20th April 2016, 10:35 AM

As Jean and Kai pointed out, the devil is in the details. The details of eyes, eyebrows, ears, hair, fingers and so on are extremely important. I never would judge the age of a hilt by only one indicator, yet the total allows an opinion.

I am very sorry, yet I am reluctant to go into the smaller details, because I have no interest to participate in or to sponsor the indonesian Keris business.

Regarding more recent carvings (thank you David), I would say, the presentation of Lingga-Yoni symbolism differs from the old depictions on Bungkul of a hilt. I would even say, in more recent times this symbolism mostly is not understood by the carver, just the ornaments depicted, or the degree of "hiding" a symbol is a completely other one.

Regarding the symbolism within Tumpal, there is another important component, the Lotus blossom. "In the esoteric vajrayana-buddhism it signifies the female principle or the female genitals (as a substitute for the hindu yoni - Liebert, Iconographic Dictionary of the Indian Religions). In fact, the state of dissolution of Yoni-Lotus motif / the state of Tumpal motif as general arrangement for ornaments on Bungkul is a very important indicator for the stage of development and thus the approximate age of a hilt.

Regarding the material, I even doubt, if most of us would recognize it, when held in hand. The appearance of rhino horn can be very different, along with it comes the degree of polish and the age (I have the feeling, they become denser with age and you can't recognize the end grains well anymore). There is a big collection of 17th cent. chinese drinking horns in Kunsthistorisches Museum Wien, and there are remarkable differences in appearance of the material. Of course, also because the chinese used horn of all three rhino species which lived in Asia. The very tip of the head of rhino hilt from Vienna (surely 17th cent., possibly much earlier) is covered with a small cap made from gold and gems, yet next to it you don't see any end grains.

A. G. Maisey · 20th April 2016, 01:00 PM

Thank you for your informative response Gustav.

I understand your reasons for not wanting to expand upon what you have already written. I'm sure that some people will be disappointed by this, but I am equally sure that your decision has been taken after due consideration.

Regrettably I am presently unable to verify exactly what Liebert published in his list of Sanskrit terms, but if he mentioned only the lotus blossom as a substitution for the lingga/yoni, he was quite incorrect --- in spite of his eminence. In Tantric Buddhism (Vajrayana Buddhism) the blossom of the lotus can in some instances be interpreted as a substitution for the yoni, it is the stem of the lotus that can be interpreted as the lingga, thus, in Tantric symbolism when it is intended that the lotus be understood in a similar way to that in which the lingga/yoni is understood, the blossom must be accompanied by the stem. I am uncertain if this reading was applicable to Tantrism as it was practiced in Hindu Jawa. It may have been, but the evidence that I can recall seems to point to the more usual interpretations of the lotus, even amongst practitioners of Tantrism.

Actually, there are quite a lot of interpretations in the Hindu-Buddhist realm for the lotus, and it is not at all difficult to err when we attempt to understand exactly how a lotus in a particular place and time was intended to be understood.

Moreover, it is important to remember that the foundation symbolism in the Javanese keris is twofold:- the link to ancestor worship, and the link to the worship of Siwa (Shiva). These two ideologies join together and are expressed through the Gunungan. Any reading of the symbolism to be found in the Javanese keris must be done from a base of Javanese understanding within the applicable time frame. We cannot take mainstream religious understandings and expect that these can be used to understand the way in which beliefs, symbols and practices were understood in Hindu-Jawa. So, although we may believe that it is valid to interpret some symbol according to an understanding held in a different place, and at a different time, we must question this belief if it does not fit comfortably with the beliefs and practices that were current in Jawa prior to Islamic domination.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but are we not discussing this matter in terms of 16th century Jawa?

When did the Islamic domination of Jawa really start to get rolling?

Perhaps we should ask ourselves if any mention of Tantrism is at all relevant at that time in Javanese history.

When we consider the iconography of Old Javanese art, there is also the necessity to take into account the interpretations of individual craftsmen, particularly so when we realise that keris and other dagger hilts in early Jawa were sometimes, possibly often, carved by their owners, not by craftsmen dedicated to the work.

18th April 2016, 05:08 PM	#3
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,211	Kai, here are a couple of examples which i am sure have been carved within the last 100 years. To my eye you can still see aspects of the lingam/yoni symbolism in the tumpals carved here. I am also including a front shot of the older example i showed earlier for a comparison of the tumpals used there. I am uncertain of the actual age of this hilt. Attached Images

20th April 2016, 01:00 PM	#7
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	Thank you for your informative response Gustav. I understand your reasons for not wanting to expand upon what you have already written. I'm sure that some people will be disappointed by this, but I am equally sure that your decision has been taken after due consideration. Regrettably I am presently unable to verify exactly what Liebert published in his list of Sanskrit terms, but if he mentioned only the lotus blossom as a substitution for the lingga/yoni, he was quite incorrect --- in spite of his eminence. In Tantric Buddhism (Vajrayana Buddhism) the blossom of the lotus can in some instances be interpreted as a substitution for the yoni, it is the stem of the lotus that can be interpreted as the lingga, thus, in Tantric symbolism when it is intended that the lotus be understood in a similar way to that in which the lingga/yoni is understood, the blossom must be accompanied by the stem. I am uncertain if this reading was applicable to Tantrism as it was practiced in Hindu Jawa. It may have been, but the evidence that I can recall seems to point to the more usual interpretations of the lotus, even amongst practitioners of Tantrism. Actually, there are quite a lot of interpretations in the Hindu-Buddhist realm for the lotus, and it is not at all difficult to err when we attempt to understand exactly how a lotus in a particular place and time was intended to be understood. Moreover, it is important to remember that the foundation symbolism in the Javanese keris is twofold:- the link to ancestor worship, and the link to the worship of Siwa (Shiva). These two ideologies join together and are expressed through the Gunungan. Any reading of the symbolism to be found in the Javanese keris must be done from a base of Javanese understanding within the applicable time frame. We cannot take mainstream religious understandings and expect that these can be used to understand the way in which beliefs, symbols and practices were understood in Hindu-Jawa. So, although we may believe that it is valid to interpret some symbol according to an understanding held in a different place, and at a different time, we must question this belief if it does not fit comfortably with the beliefs and practices that were current in Jawa prior to Islamic domination. Correct me if I'm wrong, but are we not discussing this matter in terms of 16th century Jawa? When did the Islamic domination of Jawa really start to get rolling? Perhaps we should ask ourselves if any mention of Tantrism is at all relevant at that time in Javanese history. When we consider the iconography of Old Javanese art, there is also the necessity to take into account the interpretations of individual craftsmen, particularly so when we realise that keris and other dagger hilts in early Jawa were sometimes, possibly often, carved by their owners, not by craftsmen dedicated to the work. Last edited by A. G. Maisey; 20th April 2016 at 11:03 PM. Reason: Gustav was offended by my initial comment

18th April 2016, 11:45 AM	#1
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	Thank you Gustav. Jean, I would be extremely reluctant to identify the form of the nose, or of the ears, or of any other part of this hilt as indicative of age. Why? Because current era carvings of this hilt form are, in general, copies of earlier hilts, sometimes fragmented earlier hilts, but those earlier hilts themselves were again copies of hilts that came down from a previous time. The cheap modern productions that we generally see are turned out like Bali art carvings, but the high quality hilts made by m'ranggis use patterns and models that have been in the craftsman's family for generations. Certainly, these vary, but they vary in accordance with what one m'ranngi's family carves, as opposed to what another family carves. Yes, the an acceptable reading of the abstraction between the figure's knees is of his reproductive organs, however, we must never forget that we are dealing with a society that is based upon death and renewal, so the way in which this symbolism is read can often be a little bit too simplistic. When we consider the tumpal it is important to understand that an upright tumpal is representative of the gunungan and all associated icons, and also of the male element. The inverted tumpal is symbolic of the female element. The small yoni inserted in the base of the tumpal completes the Hindu-Javanese iconography of the Lingga-Yoni. There are a number of ways that this symbolism can be interpreted, but it is perhaps sufficient to recognise that it is representive of Siwa's Shakti, Siwa himself being represented by the gunungan. As a complete entity of lingga-yoni we have the symbolism of continual renewal --- plus a whole heap of other symbols. What I've written above is all well known, nothing new or special there, but Gustav's words intrigued me, so I eagerly await his response.

20th April 2016, 10:35 AM	#6
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,273	As Jean and Kai pointed out, the devil is in the details. The details of eyes, eyebrows, ears, hair, fingers and so on are extremely important. I never would judge the age of a hilt by only one indicator, yet the total allows an opinion. I am very sorry, yet I am reluctant to go into the smaller details, because I have no interest to participate in or to sponsor the indonesian Keris business. Regarding more recent carvings (thank you David), I would say, the presentation of Lingga-Yoni symbolism differs from the old depictions on Bungkul of a hilt. I would even say, in more recent times this symbolism mostly is not understood by the carver, just the ornaments depicted, or the degree of "hiding" a symbol is a completely other one. Regarding the symbolism within Tumpal, there is another important component, the Lotus blossom. "In the esoteric vajrayana-buddhism it signifies the female principle or the female genitals (as a substitute for the hindu yoni - Liebert, Iconographic Dictionary of the Indian Religions). In fact, the state of dissolution of Yoni-Lotus motif / the state of Tumpal motif as general arrangement for ornaments on Bungkul is a very important indicator for the stage of development and thus the approximate age of a hilt. Regarding the material, I even doubt, if most of us would recognize it, when held in hand. The appearance of rhino horn can be very different, along with it comes the degree of polish and the age (I have the feeling, they become denser with age and you can't recognize the end grains well anymore). There is a big collection of 17th cent. chinese drinking horns in Kunsthistorisches Museum Wien, and there are remarkable differences in appearance of the material. Of course, also because the chinese used horn of all three rhino species which lived in Asia. The very tip of the head of rhino hilt from Vienna (surely 17th cent., possibly much earlier) is covered with a small cap made from gold and gems, yet next to it you don't see any end grains.