Figural horn (possibly rhino) hilt

[Jean]

I agree that the materials look like rhino horn but it should be confirmed in the hand.
Regarding the indicators mentioned by Gustav differentating this hilt from the modern ones, I see 4 of them:
. The shape of the worn-out nose with distinct nostrils.
. The earlobes (or earrings) have a different shape than on the modern hilts.
. The small carving above the tumpal motif on the front depicts the male organs according to Jensen.
. The carving at the base of the tumpal motif depicts the female organ according to Jensen.
Accordingly I believe that this hilt is very old.
Regards

[Gustav]

Thank you Detlef and Jean.

Alan, I will think about 1) and 2), yet I absolutely wouldn't like to answer the last one.

Today I received an e-mail with four pictures.

[A. G. Maisey]

Thank you Gustav.

Jean, I would be extremely reluctant to identify the form of the nose, or of the ears, or of any other part of this hilt as indicative of age.

Why?

Because current era carvings of this hilt form are, in general, copies of earlier hilts, sometimes fragmented earlier hilts, but those earlier hilts themselves were again copies of hilts that came down from a previous time.

The cheap modern productions that we generally see are turned out like Bali art carvings, but the high quality hilts made by m'ranggis use patterns and models that have been in the craftsman's family for generations. Certainly, these vary, but they vary in accordance with what one m'ranngi's family carves, as opposed to what another family carves.

Yes, the an acceptable reading of the abstraction between the figure's knees is of his reproductive organs, however, we must never forget that we are dealing with a society that is based upon death and renewal, so the way in which this symbolism is read can often be a little bit too simplistic.

When we consider the tumpal it is important to understand that an upright tumpal is representative of the gunungan and all associated icons, and also of the male element. The inverted tumpal is symbolic of the female element. The small yoni inserted in the base of the tumpal completes the Hindu-Javanese iconography of the Lingga-Yoni.

There are a number of ways that this symbolism can be interpreted, but it is perhaps sufficient to recognise that it is representive of Siwa's Shakti, Siwa himself being represented by the gunungan.

As a complete entity of lingga-yoni we have the symbolism of continual renewal --- plus a whole heap of other symbols.

What I've written above is all well known, nothing new or special there, but Gustav's words intrigued me, so I eagerly await his response.

[kai]

Hello Alan,

the high quality hilts made by m'ranggis use patterns and models that have been in the craftsman's family for generations. Certainly, these vary, but they vary in accordance with what one m'ranngi's family carves, as opposed to what another family carves.

Do you possibly have any examples (carved during the last 100-200 years by traditional mranggi families) of these archaic styles/patterns that appear to be characteristic of the "Kunstkammer" keris? While I realize that traditional pre-WW2 (or possibly even extant) hilt carving is (often) based on very old patterns, I have gained the impression that the early hilts had features that got obsolete (possibly culturally inappropiate or, less likely, merely out of fashion) in the following centuries.

As Gustav (and Karsten) already pointed out, there are only a few extant examples that appear to be early collected. If you know of any similar ones from later periods, this would certainly be really important for the current working hyotheses.

Regards,
Kai

[David]

Kai, here are a couple of examples which i am sure have been carved within the last 100 years. To my eye you can still see aspects of the lingam/yoni symbolism in the tumpals carved here.
I am also including a front shot of the older example i showed earlier for a comparison of the tumpals used there. I am uncertain of the actual age of this hilt.

[kai]

Hello David,

here are a couple of examples which i am sure have been carved within the last 100 years. To my eye you can still see aspects of the lingam/yoni symbolism in the tumpals carved here.

Yes, these 2 do qualify as modern. Very similar workmanship, indeed.

While it is evident that these are offspring of the old style hilts, it's not about the similarity (nor quality of workmanship) but rather differences in detail.

I am also including a front shot of the older example i showed earlier for a comparison of the tumpals used there. I am uncertain of the actual age of this hilt.

Thanks, a really nice one! This "man in green" style makes it even more difficult to place (and the wear doesn't help either to discern details).

We need close-ups from all sides of this hilt for analysis. It might be older than you think...

Regards,
Kai

[David]

Originally Posted by kai

Yes, these 2 do qualify as modern. Very similar workmanship, indeed.
While it is evident that these are offspring of the old style hilts, it's not about the similarity (nor quality of workmanship) but rather differences in detail.

Well, i only posted these hilts because Gustav seemed to be implying that the lingam/yoni symbolism is not to be found in the tumpal of "modern" versions of these hilts. While stylized i maintain that symbolism is indeed present in these examples. I have seen many other more modern versions where it is not.

Originally Posted by kai

Thanks, a really nice one! This "man in green" style makes it even more difficult to place (and the wear doesn't help either to discern details).
We need close-ups from all sides of this hilt for analysis. It might be older than you think...

I don't really want to detract from this thread too much by posting a series of images of this hilt. While worn it does seem to also incorporate the lingam/yoni into the tumpal. However, i have posted all sides of it before so you can check this thread out if you want a closer look. I am aware that it is pretty old.
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ight=buta+hilt

[Jean]

Originally Posted by Gustav

Thank you Detlef and Jean.

Alan, I will think about 1) and 2), yet I absolutely wouldn't like to answer the last one.

Today I received an e-mail with four pictures.

Post deleted.

[kai]

Folks, we have been through this already several times: From the pics supplied so far, there is no chance whatsoever to verify wether this hilt is made from rhino or waterbuffalo horn! We really need a close-up of a cross-section of the fibers, i. e. the top of the head or possibly the base of the hilt also.

We can argue about likelihoods but this never positively prooves anything for any given piece. Actually, the current pics make me feel albino water buffalo - I agree that the alternative is also plausible though...

Thanks a lot for those pics, Gustav! Could you please try to get additional ones? I also wouldn't mind better quality pics of the other parts of this keris...

Regards,
Kai

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by kai

Thanks a lot for those pics, Gustav! Could you please try to get additional ones? I also wouldn't mind better quality pics of the other parts of this keris...

Hello Kai,

here two more pictures from the auction.

[kai]

Hello Detlef,

here two more pictures from the auction.

Thanks! I was hoping for additional pics, better resolution (despite the auction pics being better than from many auction houses), from other angles, or after cleaning/warangan since Gustav may have the opportunity...

Regards,
Kai

[A. G. Maisey]

I don't know if I have any hilts like that Kai. I have never commissioned any, that much I do know, I tried to order a couple once, but I could not negotiate what I thought was a reasonable price, so I let it go.

I'm not at home at the moment, when I get back I'll have a look and see what I have that might be relevant to this discussion. I need to look through what I have, because I have far too many hilts to remember them all.

[David]

Originally Posted by Jean

The materials is translucent on these pics so it definitely looks to be rhino horn.
Regards

Jean, i have both white and green buffalo horn that is also translucent. I don't believe we can use that as an indicator of rhino horn. Again, i am not trying to argue that this cannot be rhino, simple that we do not have the type of photographs yet that can provide any definitive answer to that question.

[Jean]

Originally Posted by David

Jean, i have both white and green buffalo horn that is also translucent. I don't believe we can use that as an indicator of rhino horn. Again, i am not trying to argue that this cannot be rhino, simple that we do not have the type of photographs yet that can provide any definitive answer to that question.

Hello David and Kai,
Could you please show us a hilt made from white or green buffalo horn and having a similar color to the one shown by Gustav?
Regards

[kai]

Hello Jean,

Sorry for the brisk comment. A search on the main forum will yield a bunch of threads covering the identification of horn.

Could you please show us a hilt made from white or green buffalo horn and having a similar color to the one shown by Gustav?

Here some examples from albino water buffalo:





(The greenish variants tend to be a bit darker, of course.)

Regards,
Kai

[Jean]

Originally Posted by kai

Hello Jean,

Sorry for the brisk comment. A search on the main forum will yield a bunch of threads covering the identification of horn.
(The greenish variants tend to be a bit darker, of course.)

Regards,
Kai

Thank you Kai. I rarely look at the main forum so I did not see these pics. I agree that the identification is confusing although the color of the rhino horn seems darker (mid brown), and I am more familiar with the green horn which is quite different.
Regards