Russian Khyber knife

ariel · 18th April 2016, 02:07 AM

OK, folks, let's ignore the snarks etc.

I repeat my question: does anyone here know of any other example of a Khyber or any other 19th century Afghani bladed weapon with Russian stamps? I know about British and, likely, German blades for their short swords/sabers, but nothing Russian.
Is it possible that Afghani military was supplied by both sides of the Great Game?

AJ1356 · 18th April 2016, 03:25 AM

It is quite possible, I think king Abdul Rahman was in Russia before coming to power, or something like that. My history is a bit fuzzy right now. I know later on Soviet made weapons were the norm in Afghan army, post WWII.

mahratt · 18th April 2016, 04:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AJ1356

It is quite possible, I think king Abdul Rahman was in Russia before coming to power, or something like that. My history is a bit fuzzy right now. I know later on Soviet made weapons were the norm in Afghan army, post WWII.

Abdurrahman was in Russia, but only in Bukhara (which at that time belonged to the Russian)

And Zlatoust and Bukhara are located far from each other. In addition, Abdurrahman did not have such influence, that for him to Zlatoust specially made Afghan weapon with Russian stamps.

Do you know about the production of weapons for Afghanistan in the Soviet Union? ))))) It would be very interesting. Maybe you are talking about deliveries of Russian weapons to the Afghan army?

And here's another question. Do you think that this the Khyber knife is not made in Afghanistan? In your option it produced in Russia?

ariel · 18th April 2016, 05:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AJ1356

It is quite possible, I think king Abdul Rahman was in Russia before coming to power, or something like that. My history is a bit fuzzy right now. I know later on Soviet made weapons were the norm in Afghan army, post WWII.

Well, in this particular case we are dealing with a pre-1917 revolutionary Zlatoust, as evidenced by the orthography and the double-headed eagle.
What alternative explanations do we have?
1. old Afghans stole the stamping device from Zlatoust. What for? Would wild Pushtuns give a dam about having a Russia-made weapon?
2. old Khyber was recently re-branded with a fake device. But then, again what for? This would not increase the value of the sword and, indeed, it did not sell despite being priced in line with other khybers. And it did not come from Russia.
3. A traveling Zlatoust salesman showing his samples to Gilzais or Khazara? No comment:-)
4. An order of some CA khan, a vassal of the Tsar, for a batch of Zlatoust blades for his Royal butchers?

Anything else?

Old Roman approach " Qui prodest?", Who benefits? doesn't seem to help.

I am confused.....

This stamp is a real curveball.

mahratt · 18th April 2016, 05:59 AM

We have a modern stamp) ) ) And all further discussion of the subject - science fiction in the style of Bradbury and Moorcock ) ) ) ) )

Why put a modern stamp on the old Khyber knife - it is a mystery. Versions can be many. From a simple joke. Prior to check stamp. That is, maybe someone before you put a stamp on a modern copy of Russian weapons, decided to practice on a cheap Khyber knife.

ariel · 18th April 2016, 11:12 AM

Folks,
Please look at the small stamp in the lower left corner of the upper pic I presented: it was taken from the academic site of Zlatoust markings and one can find it in the reference I provided.
Personal opinions of some Russian Forumites are interesting, but not of the same evidentiary value.
Showing a modern copy of a stamping device is also educational, but we still do not know what stamp it leaves.

Thus the Jury ( you) is still out . We have a material object: Khyber with a Russian stamp. This is a fact. Are there additional facts, both pro and con, rather than speculations of uncertain validity?

mahratt · 18th April 2016, 12:21 PM

Please show an example of Russian weapons with a stamp identical stamp in Afghanistan Khyber. While those stamps that you have shown very different (stamp on the Afghan Khyber gives double contour picture). This is clearly seen in the photo from the post number 9.

TVV · 18th April 2016, 11:22 PM

I am sorry but this looks to me like an old blade with a fake modern stamp as well. Just because the item failed to achieve a high price, does not mean there was no such intent by whoever put the stamp on. The fact tat it failed to sell seems to indicate that most buyers were put off by the marking.

Teodor

mahratt · 18th April 2016, 04:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

I know about British and, likely, German blades for their short swords/sabers,

It is not difficult to give examples of short swords?

18th April 2016, 02:07 AM	#1
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	OK, folks, let's ignore the snarks etc. I repeat my question: does anyone here know of any other example of a Khyber or any other 19th century Afghani bladed weapon with Russian stamps? I know about British and, likely, German blades for their short swords/sabers, but nothing Russian. Is it possible that Afghani military was supplied by both sides of the Great Game? Last edited by ariel; 18th April 2016 at 03:00 AM.

18th April 2016, 05:59 AM	#5
mahratt Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Russia Posts: 1,042	We have a modern stamp) ) ) And all further discussion of the subject - science fiction in the style of Bradbury and Moorcock ) ) ) ) ) Why put a modern stamp on the old Khyber knife - it is a mystery. Versions can be many. From a simple joke. Prior to check stamp. That is, maybe someone before you put a stamp on a modern copy of Russian weapons, decided to practice on a cheap Khyber knife. Last edited by mahratt; 18th April 2016 at 06:53 AM.

18th April 2016, 12:21 PM	#7
mahratt Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Russia Posts: 1,042	Please show an example of Russian weapons with a stamp identical stamp in Afghanistan Khyber. While those stamps that you have shown very different (stamp on the Afghan Khyber gives double contour picture). This is clearly seen in the photo from the post number 9. Attached Images

18th April 2016, 03:25 AM	#2
AJ1356 Member Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Nashville Posts: 317	It is quite possible, I think king Abdul Rahman was in Russia before coming to power, or something like that. My history is a bit fuzzy right now. I know later on Soviet made weapons were the norm in Afghan army, post WWII.

18th April 2016, 11:12 AM	#6
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Folks, Please look at the small stamp in the lower left corner of the upper pic I presented: it was taken from the academic site of Zlatoust markings and one can find it in the reference I provided. Personal opinions of some Russian Forumites are interesting, but not of the same evidentiary value. Showing a modern copy of a stamping device is also educational, but we still do not know what stamp it leaves. Thus the Jury ( you) is still out . We have a material object: Khyber with a Russian stamp. This is a fact. Are there additional facts, both pro and con, rather than speculations of uncertain validity?

18th April 2016, 11:22 PM	#8
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,664	I am sorry but this looks to me like an old blade with a fake modern stamp as well. Just because the item failed to achieve a high price, does not mean there was no such intent by whoever put the stamp on. The fact tat it failed to sell seems to indicate that most buyers were put off by the marking. Teodor