When in India "died" wootz?

ausjulius · 17th April 2016, 04:15 AM

after reading though this discussion, i will just share my general observation at least based on knife making and knife and its economics.

it is no mystery as to why bulat/wootz disappeared with so little fanfare.

the steels made in europe already in the 18th century were superior to other made in the world.

science being applied in their production and treatment..

if you have worked with "smith made" steel you will know why the world became hooked on european steels..

sith made steel is a different surprise every time..
with working tools its always a surprise .. many times a nasty surprise.. which transfers on to the maker of the tools. failures in blades tools ect.. hurt your reputation.

making the superior steel that you were sure of its quality for a thin edge only was the normal practice most tools outside of europe at this time..
wedging it in iron.

time consuming.. a full blade like a sword in a good steel was a very costly item to make..

suddenly you could buy a superior steel in a formed bar or rod for a fraction of the price and it was a reliable material..
you could forge full blade form it for a fraction of the price.

sout east asian blades are a good example ...lamination of tools and smelting of ones own steel stopped almost instantly when european steel arrived.

bulat/wootz became old hat - uninteresting and the new steel pushed it aside.

a bulat blade can not survive the same harsh treatment as the blade of a regular cavalry blade made in 1800 form some reputable european maker.

in a period when swords were still used this becomes completely apparent.

handguns as well replacing edged weapons as status symbols and for personal weapons.

in places where there was a strong cultural or religious tradition for an exotic blade material like japan or indonesia.. or due to isolation like tibet.. laminated or pattern welded blades still remained common...

in india wootz was popular because it was a superior steel.. its pattern was the secondary reason it was popular.. in central asia.. iran... afghanistan it was all the same as well.

wars and chaos. afghanistan. nations in what is now india... iran.. economic disruption ect..
many things changed in this time..

you can also look at glass production.. european production totally surpassed local production at this same time as well.. previously a expensive product became cheap better quality and available to all.

if you collect playing cards . its the same time that european playing cards replaced middle eastern cards as well. mass production... better quality, cheaper price.

this was a period of economic change in the world.

just look at how all these specialized skills died out in europe after ww1 and ww2
just gone over such a short perior.. many of their markets disappeared form one day to the next..

british raj were not buying fine bespoke products any more.. the worlds aristocracy disappeared, there was no wealthy gentry going in safari.. no exotically dressed bodyguards..
ect ect ect..

this can happen in 1 year.. the craftsmen disperse so do their techniques the client network gone... the item will vanish.. and then 100 years later we will discuss it nostalgically.
but its process is lost to us, and we will view it as some mystery. as many of these things take many many small specialized steps.. if things are not performed constantly they are lost in a decade or less.

ariel · 17th April 2016, 08:12 AM

Exactly my thoughts.

mahratt · 17th April 2016, 10:55 AM

I see no one reads closely to each other ... I did not write that after the mid-19th century, preserved the mass production of wootz steel. I fully agrees that economic reasons have led to the disappearance of the mass production of wootz weapons.
But can not talk about the disappearance production of weapons of wootz steelin the middle of the 19th century, as there is evidence proving that the Central Asian weapons of wootz steel produced before the end of the 19th century.

ariel · 17th April 2016, 01:21 PM

How does "middle of the 19th century" differ from " before the end of the 19th century"?

And what is the relevance of Central Asia to the original question of Indian wootz?

As we speak, dozens of bladesmiths around the world ( India included) produce wootz of variable quality. Is it an argument in favor of " wootz manufacture never died" proposition?

Is it possible to be more precise in posing questions and choosing arguments?

Just curious.

mahratt · 17th April 2016, 06:52 PM

To make it clearer. The middle of the 19th century - the year 1850. End of 19th century - 1899. The difference in half a century - is essential.
Communication between Central Asia and India is simple. If the Central Asian weapons of wootz steel made before the end of the 19th century (although it was not mass-produced), then in India is the production of locally could be preserved.

ariel · 17th April 2016, 08:04 PM

I fully agree: wootz production in India "died" sometimes between 1850-1899 .
That was said multiple times before. Shall we go in the middle , agree on June 30, 1874 and leave it like that?

Unless, of course, notarized letters of eye witnesses of actual forging can be presented:-) Could, would and should have no evidentiary value.

Taking into account that most of Central Asian wootz blades were of obvious Persian manufacture, that several informers mention Persian origin of wootz CA blades, and that, AFAIK, there is no well-documented evidence of wootz production there, aside of Ann Feuerbach's finding of ancient crucibles, the continuation of wootz production in the Khanates and in Afghanistan at the above-mentioned period is not proven.

Continuing this discussion is akin to a sandbox argument who would win in a wrestling match : a whale or an elephant?

Count me out:-)))))

mahratt · 17th April 2016, 08:26 PM

The fact that someone has not yet proved the fact of wootz steel production in the late 19th century in Central Asia and Afghanistan, does not mean that it was not. There is growing evidence to prove that at the end of the 19th century in this region produced of wootz weapons .

But, of course, can believe the old dogmas

Of course it is easier than most to analyze and carry out research)))))

So I think really, to continue the discussion does not make sense.

17th April 2016, 04:15 AM	#1
ausjulius Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: musorian territory Posts: 444	after reading though this discussion, i will just share my general observation at least based on knife making and knife and its economics. it is no mystery as to why bulat/wootz disappeared with so little fanfare. the steels made in europe already in the 18th century were superior to other made in the world. science being applied in their production and treatment.. if you have worked with "smith made" steel you will know why the world became hooked on european steels.. sith made steel is a different surprise every time.. with working tools its always a surprise .. many times a nasty surprise.. which transfers on to the maker of the tools. failures in blades tools ect.. hurt your reputation. making the superior steel that you were sure of its quality for a thin edge only was the normal practice most tools outside of europe at this time.. wedging it in iron. time consuming.. a full blade like a sword in a good steel was a very costly item to make.. suddenly you could buy a superior steel in a formed bar or rod for a fraction of the price and it was a reliable material.. you could forge full blade form it for a fraction of the price. sout east asian blades are a good example ...lamination of tools and smelting of ones own steel stopped almost instantly when european steel arrived. bulat/wootz became old hat - uninteresting and the new steel pushed it aside. a bulat blade can not survive the same harsh treatment as the blade of a regular cavalry blade made in 1800 form some reputable european maker. in a period when swords were still used this becomes completely apparent. handguns as well replacing edged weapons as status symbols and for personal weapons. in places where there was a strong cultural or religious tradition for an exotic blade material like japan or indonesia.. or due to isolation like tibet.. laminated or pattern welded blades still remained common... in india wootz was popular because it was a superior steel.. its pattern was the secondary reason it was popular.. in central asia.. iran... afghanistan it was all the same as well. wars and chaos. afghanistan. nations in what is now india... iran.. economic disruption ect.. many things changed in this time.. you can also look at glass production.. european production totally surpassed local production at this same time as well.. previously a expensive product became cheap better quality and available to all. if you collect playing cards . its the same time that european playing cards replaced middle eastern cards as well. mass production... better quality, cheaper price. this was a period of economic change in the world. just look at how all these specialized skills died out in europe after ww1 and ww2 just gone over such a short perior.. many of their markets disappeared form one day to the next.. british raj were not buying fine bespoke products any more.. the worlds aristocracy disappeared, there was no wealthy gentry going in safari.. no exotically dressed bodyguards.. ect ect ect.. this can happen in 1 year.. the craftsmen disperse so do their techniques the client network gone... the item will vanish.. and then 100 years later we will discuss it nostalgically. but its process is lost to us, and we will view it as some mystery. as many of these things take many many small specialized steps.. if things are not performed constantly they are lost in a decade or less.

17th April 2016, 08:12 AM	#2
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Exactly my thoughts.

17th April 2016, 10:55 AM	#3
mahratt Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Russia Posts: 1,042	I see no one reads closely to each other ... I did not write that after the mid-19th century, preserved the mass production of wootz steel. I fully agrees that economic reasons have led to the disappearance of the mass production of wootz weapons. But can not talk about the disappearance production of weapons of wootz steelin the middle of the 19th century, as there is evidence proving that the Central Asian weapons of wootz steel produced before the end of the 19th century.

17th April 2016, 01:21 PM	#4
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	How does "middle of the 19th century" differ from " before the end of the 19th century"? And what is the relevance of Central Asia to the original question of Indian wootz? As we speak, dozens of bladesmiths around the world ( India included) produce wootz of variable quality. Is it an argument in favor of " wootz manufacture never died" proposition? Is it possible to be more precise in posing questions and choosing arguments? Just curious.

17th April 2016, 06:52 PM	#5
mahratt Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Russia Posts: 1,042	To make it clearer. The middle of the 19th century - the year 1850. End of 19th century - 1899. The difference in half a century - is essential. Communication between Central Asia and India is simple. If the Central Asian weapons of wootz steel made before the end of the 19th century (although it was not mass-produced), then in India is the production of locally could be preserved.

17th April 2016, 08:04 PM	#6
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	I fully agree: wootz production in India "died" sometimes between 1850-1899 . That was said multiple times before. Shall we go in the middle , agree on June 30, 1874 and leave it like that? Unless, of course, notarized letters of eye witnesses of actual forging can be presented:-) Could, would and should have no evidentiary value. Taking into account that most of Central Asian wootz blades were of obvious Persian manufacture, that several informers mention Persian origin of wootz CA blades, and that, AFAIK, there is no well-documented evidence of wootz production there, aside of Ann Feuerbach's finding of ancient crucibles, the continuation of wootz production in the Khanates and in Afghanistan at the above-mentioned period is not proven. Continuing this discussion is akin to a sandbox argument who would win in a wrestling match : a whale or an elephant? Count me out:-)))))

17th April 2016, 08:26 PM	#7
mahratt Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Russia Posts: 1,042	The fact that someone has not yet proved the fact of wootz steel production in the late 19th century in Central Asia and Afghanistan, does not mean that it was not. There is growing evidence to prove that at the end of the 19th century in this region produced of wootz weapons . But, of course, can believe the old dogmas Of course it is easier than most to analyze and carry out research))))) So I think really, to continue the discussion does not make sense.