The Size of the Keris

A. G. Maisey · 12th April 2016, 01:20 AM

Thank you for your response Gustav.

I have no doubt that what you wrote in respect of keris length in Jawa having important symbolism is something that because of its extremely reliable source, you believe absolutely.

I also understand very well that some people who supply us with information are reluctant to permit us to pass that information to third parties, thus your inability to reveal the source of your knowledge is well understood.

However, before I comment further on this matter, I would request your indulgence in a small clarification.

Your exact words were:-

"Alan, I can assure you, that in the land of Java the symbolism of length of Keris was an important factor, at least since the beginning of 19. cent."

And I understood these words to be in response to my own comment, which was:-

"Hierarchical position through the keris is shown in much more subtle ways in Jawa than by the rather obvious symbolism of size."

Thus, I understood your comment to mean the following:-

since the year 1800, and for some time thereafter, in the geographic location that is regarded by the Javanese people as the Land of Jawa, as distinct from the Island of Jawa, the length of a keris blade could be symbolically understood as indicating the hierarchical position in either the society at large, or possibly only within the confines of the courts, as indicative of the hierarchical position of the wearer.

Specifically, that a longer keris blade co-related to a higher hierarchical position within the society, or a segment of the society.

So Gustav, can you confirm that my understanding of your comment is correct?

If my understanding is not correct, would you be so kind as to amend this understanding?

Thank you so much.

A. G. Maisey · 12th April 2016, 02:09 AM

Thank you for your comment Roland.

David has commented that the mode of use of a keris, and of a modern defence force dagger is completely different, and I agree with this, however, the philosophy of use in both the FS dagger and the Javanese keris is virtually the same:- the opponent should be dead before he even realises that he is in danger.

I have deliberately specified the Javanese keris, and the FS dagger, because the mode of use of these two weapons is something that I understand well.

The use of the keris in places other than Jawa can be governed by different philosophies, and the use of defence force daggers can vary from nation to nation and conflict to conflict. I do not have a thorough knowledge of the ways in which keris were used in every society where they existed, nor do I have a thorough knowledge of defence force daggers in all countries.

Although the keris in Jawa should ideally be used in a surreptitious manner, on those occasions where this was not possible, the available evidence indicates that it was used in a manner similar to the way in which a rapier was used. However, although the keris in Jawa may have been used in some circumstances, in a similar way to the rapier, there was no system of fence taught for its use.

Actually, dependent upon circumstances, blade length is not particularly important in ensuring the demise of an opponent.

I once sat through a training video of an actual event that occurred in the USA. A highway patrol officer stopped a vehicle to question the driver. The driver did not wish to be questioned so he slashed the officer's throat with the short blade of a Swiss Army Knife. The short blade of a SA knife is about 1.5 inches long. The officer died.

Blade width is not all that important either. Prior to WWII most women in Australia would not leave the house without wearing a hat. These hats were kept in place with hat pins, which were very thin, sharply pointed steel pins up to 6 inches long. I used to know a woman who was molested by a man whilst travelling by rail, she stabbed him repeatedly with her hat pin. The man died as result of this attack.

Then we have another example from Jawa itself. In Jawa, especially in East Jawa and Madura, cock fighting spurs are a favourite weapon of those people who use sharp pointy things to injure or kill others. These spurs are razor sharp and around 3 or 4 inches long and about 1/4 inch wide, for use as a weapon a piece of cloth is wound around the base and the size permits easy concealment in the hand. A favoured technique is to walk towards the target and slash his or her throat in passing.

Circumstances alter cases.

12th April 2016, 01:20 AM	#1
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,085	Thank you for your response Gustav. I have no doubt that what you wrote in respect of keris length in Jawa having important symbolism is something that because of its extremely reliable source, you believe absolutely. I also understand very well that some people who supply us with information are reluctant to permit us to pass that information to third parties, thus your inability to reveal the source of your knowledge is well understood. However, before I comment further on this matter, I would request your indulgence in a small clarification. Your exact words were:- "Alan, I can assure you, that in the land of Java the symbolism of length of Keris was an important factor, at least since the beginning of 19. cent." And I understood these words to be in response to my own comment, which was:- "Hierarchical position through the keris is shown in much more subtle ways in Jawa than by the rather obvious symbolism of size." Thus, I understood your comment to mean the following:- since the year 1800, and for some time thereafter, in the geographic location that is regarded by the Javanese people as the Land of Jawa, as distinct from the Island of Jawa, the length of a keris blade could be symbolically understood as indicating the hierarchical position in either the society at large, or possibly only within the confines of the courts, as indicative of the hierarchical position of the wearer. Specifically, that a longer keris blade co-related to a higher hierarchical position within the society, or a segment of the society. So Gustav, can you confirm that my understanding of your comment is correct? If my understanding is not correct, would you be so kind as to amend this understanding? Thank you so much.

12th April 2016, 02:09 AM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,085	Thank you for your comment Roland. David has commented that the mode of use of a keris, and of a modern defence force dagger is completely different, and I agree with this, however, the philosophy of use in both the FS dagger and the Javanese keris is virtually the same:- the opponent should be dead before he even realises that he is in danger. I have deliberately specified the Javanese keris, and the FS dagger, because the mode of use of these two weapons is something that I understand well. The use of the keris in places other than Jawa can be governed by different philosophies, and the use of defence force daggers can vary from nation to nation and conflict to conflict. I do not have a thorough knowledge of the ways in which keris were used in every society where they existed, nor do I have a thorough knowledge of defence force daggers in all countries. Although the keris in Jawa should ideally be used in a surreptitious manner, on those occasions where this was not possible, the available evidence indicates that it was used in a manner similar to the way in which a rapier was used. However, although the keris in Jawa may have been used in some circumstances, in a similar way to the rapier, there was no system of fence taught for its use. Actually, dependent upon circumstances, blade length is not particularly important in ensuring the demise of an opponent. I once sat through a training video of an actual event that occurred in the USA. A highway patrol officer stopped a vehicle to question the driver. The driver did not wish to be questioned so he slashed the officer's throat with the short blade of a Swiss Army Knife. The short blade of a SA knife is about 1.5 inches long. The officer died. Blade width is not all that important either. Prior to WWII most women in Australia would not leave the house without wearing a hat. These hats were kept in place with hat pins, which were very thin, sharply pointed steel pins up to 6 inches long. I used to know a woman who was molested by a man whilst travelling by rail, she stabbed him repeatedly with her hat pin. The man died as result of this attack. Then we have another example from Jawa itself. In Jawa, especially in East Jawa and Madura, cock fighting spurs are a favourite weapon of those people who use sharp pointy things to injure or kill others. These spurs are razor sharp and around 3 or 4 inches long and about 1/4 inch wide, for use as a weapon a piece of cloth is wound around the base and the size permits easy concealment in the hand. A favoured technique is to walk towards the target and slash his or her throat in passing. Circumstances alter cases.