Ethnographic Arms & Armour
 

Go Back   Ethnographic Arms & Armour > Discussion Forums > Ethnographic Weapons
FAQ Calendar Today's Posts Search

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 10th April 2016, 06:45 AM   #1
TCole
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 16
Default Where are these two shields from?

I find so many of the literature is vague when it comes to the provenance or place of origin/manufacture of some of these Indian shields.

I have recently developed an interest in these things and I would be interested to hear what the community out there thinks of these.

Thanks in advance,
Tom
Attached Images
  
TCole is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10th April 2016, 04:22 PM   #2
Jens Nordlunde
Member
 
Jens Nordlunde's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Europe
Posts: 2,718
Default

According to the Moser catalogue 1955 the shield to the right could, maybe, be Afghan. In the catalogue is shown a shield, not quite like yours, but still - it could be Afghan.
Jens Nordlunde is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10th April 2016, 11:02 PM   #3
TCole
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 16
Default

Jens Nordlunde - Your opinion that it might be Afghan based upon the Moser catalogue is based on … photographs of Afghan shields? or some of the text offered in that catalogue? If text.. can you quote it? And if based on photos, any chance to scan them and put it here in this thread?? Thanks.

Tom
TCole is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10th April 2016, 11:48 PM   #4
iskender
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 60
Default right shield

good evening, the right shield is similar with one in my collection i think it is from north /india, now pakistan.. possibly from a muslim warrior. Iskender
iskender is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11th April 2016, 12:10 AM   #5
TCole
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 16
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by iskender
good evening, the right shield is similar with one in my collection i think it is from north /india, now pakistan.. possibly from a muslim warrior. Iskender

North Pakistan? Pashtun from the border area? Or…?
TCole is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11th April 2016, 12:11 AM   #6
TCole
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 16
Default right shield

Quote:
Originally Posted by iskender
good evening, the right shield is similar with one in my collection i think it is from north /india, now pakistan.. possibly from a muslim warrior. Iskender
And this one is metal, I was told.. not hide as it appears to be with the black lacquer
TCole is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11th April 2016, 04:18 AM   #7
iskender
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 60
Default metal

good evening ,the shield of mine is similar in the decoration as yours , from hammerd iron 250/300 years old or earlyer. the interesting detail is that the rim of the outer radius is folded and ironcut in a design and technique equal to the rims of the type indian armor / deccani full bodycuirasse / these plain bodyarmors from wootzsteel , horrible expensive when in a good condition.i dont now more in the moment , i will see what i find in the books. thanks iskender
iskender is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11th April 2016, 09:56 AM   #8
Jens Nordlunde
Member
 
Jens Nordlunde's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Europe
Posts: 2,718
Default

Tom,
The shield is from: Orientalisches Sammlung Henri Moser-Charlottenfels, 1955 and the authors are Rudolf Zeller and Ernst F. Rohrer.

The shield attached is shown in the Afghan chapter, and the authors are very careful not to mention how old it is. They do, however, give some measurers.
Diameter 38.1 cm
Hight 7 cm
Thickness 1 mm
Weight 1.365 kg
The shield is made of iron with brass decorations.
Attached Images
 
Jens Nordlunde is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11th April 2016, 10:59 AM   #9
colin henshaw
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,430
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde
Tom,
The shield is from: Orientalisches Sammlung Henri Moser-Charlottenfels, 1955 and the authors are Rudolf Zeller and Ernst F. Rohrer.

The shield attached is shown in the Afghan chapter, and the authors are very careful not to mention how old it is. They do, however, give some measurers.
Diameter 38.1 cm
Hight 7 cm
Thickness 1 mm
Weight 1.365 kg
The shield is made of iron with brass decorations.
This dhal I have, looks very similar to the one illustrated in this book...
Attached Images
 
colin henshaw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11th April 2016, 01:59 PM   #10
iskender
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 60
Default hindu kush/punjab

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde
Tom,
The shield is from: Orientalisches Sammlung Henri Moser-Charlottenfels, 1955 and the authors are Rudolf Zeller and Ernst F. Rohrer.

The shield attached is shown in the Afghan chapter, and the authors are very careful not to mention how old it is. They do, however, give some measurers.
Diameter 38.1 cm
Hight 7 cm
Thickness 1 mm
Weight 1.365 kg
The shield is made of iron with brass decorations.
good day , a similar shield like the H.R.Charlottenburg example in my collection , 35 cm diameter, has these crestcent decorations as this one. In the glossary of g.stone under "dahl " no place of origin is given.In the book "arms and armor from iran" there are two shields cat 373 and cat 376 with halfmoons pointing to a muslimstate in iran. this shield i would put in between the borders of the mugahl empire 1525 or 1605 hindu kush /punjab. as for the age it is hard to say .in the book of e.jaiwant paul there is also a moon declaird as the symbol of the Chandravanshi raiputs. best regards iskender

Last edited by iskender; 11th April 2016 at 02:31 PM.
iskender is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11th April 2016, 03:14 PM   #11
Jens Nordlunde
Member
 
Jens Nordlunde's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Europe
Posts: 2,718
Default

I dont know enough about shields to tell the age and from where they are.

It could have a Muslim origin, but there is also another possibility. It could origin from one of the lunar born clans, like Bhati, Chandelas, Chudasama, Jadauna, Jadeja, Katoch, Tomares and others.
The Bhati's did at one time rule in Sind, Punjab and even in Afghanistan.
A few pointers for further research.
Jens Nordlunde is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11th April 2016, 04:14 PM   #12
TCole
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 16
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde
I dont know enough about shields to tell the age and from where they are.

It could have a Muslim origin, but there is also another possibility. It could origin from one of the lunar born clans, like Bhati, Chandelas, Chudasama, Jadauna, Jadeja, Katoch, Tomares and others.
The Bhati's did at one time rule in Sind, Punjab and even in Afghanistan.
A few pointers for further research.

Surely the presence of the crescent moon is not an exclusive indicator of Muslim origin. The technique, the iconography/design seems to me would be more important to consider. The similarity of the shield from 1955 book and Colin's shield is striking. But none of these others have paint/lacquer like this, do they?
TCole is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11th April 2016, 06:54 PM   #13
TCole
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 16
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde
I dont know enough about shields to tell the age and from where they are.

It could have a Muslim origin, but there is also another possibility. It could origin from one of the lunar born clans, like Bhati, Chandelas, Chudasama, Jadauna, Jadeja, Katoch, Tomares and others.
The Bhati's did at one time rule in Sind, Punjab and even in Afghanistan.
A few pointers for further research.

Thank you very much. Guessing the other one to the left has no place of origin? I am guessing the generic attribution of Benares might be used on this one?

This "Benares" attribution appears to be used on material that most agree is "late", ie. circa 1900 - 20? But surely enameled shields were made elsewhere at that time and before as well, given the skill of craftsmanship seen in weapons (daggers/sword hilts)? I'm curious.. just looking at photographs of material and trying to place it in terms of geography rather than a chronology with dates.
TCole is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 11:53 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Posts are regarded as being copyrighted by their authors and the act of posting material is deemed to be a granting of an irrevocable nonexclusive license for display here.