WOOTZ or SHAM?

Jens Nordlunde · 27th January 2006, 10:35 PM

Hi All,

Thank you for your answers. I too like wootz very much, but I also have the feeling that many of the pattern-welded patterns are underestimated.

The explanation of the difference shown in the two pictures in mail #23 is very interesting.

Jeff Pringle · 28th January 2006, 06:06 PM

Quote:

many of the pattern-welded patterns are underestimated.

I think you may be right there, Jens.
Pattern welding gives the smith a much broader range of design elements, and can result in an incredible array of appearances in the finished surface. Some of the patternwelded rifle barrels in Figiel's "On Damascus Steel" are of mind-numbing complexity, with as many as ten or twenty operations on the steel to develop a specific pattern, before the metal is even made into something!
Although wootz gives less options in design, it offsets that by being rare, cool and mysterious - as modern smiths get more used to working with wootz I'm sure we'll do more with the patterning potential, there is certainly some room to explore there.

Rick · 28th January 2006, 06:16 PM

Should these random surface patterns really be referred to as 'Pattern Welded' ?
I see disorganised patterns such as these as a result of plain old layer forging rather than a planned pattern such as bird's eye which is obviously manipulated to produce the desired effect .

Thoughts ?

Jeff Pringle · 28th January 2006, 07:12 PM

Quote:

Should these random surface patterns really be referred to as 'Pattern Welded' ?

I'd vote 'yes', because the method of manufacture is the same, and a random pattern is still a pattern. The smith might not have been directing it, but it's there.
Note the horizontal traces in the left blade of post 23 - the smith was doing some manipulation there, although I'm not sure you are referring back to those two blades?
The right hand blade looks like it went through the bird's eye treatment (or something similar), but due to the low number of layers the effect is stylized into something else.

Rick · 28th January 2006, 09:35 PM

Hi Jeff , yeah those were the two blades I was referring to .
I'd like to see longer samples of each one .

I guess when I think of *pattern* I think of repetition as in Turkish Star or Ribbon , Ladder Pattern , Rose etc .
Something specifically manipulated to achieve an effect .

So any blade forged in layers is in fact Pattern Welded ?

kai · 28th January 2006, 11:06 PM

Quote:

Should these random surface patterns really be referred to as 'Pattern Welded' ?

I also thought about this question, Rick.

I tend to vote "yes" - especially since there seems to be no objective cut-off between random and "forced" patterns but rather a broad continuum between the extremes. There also seem to be quite some patterns which were not strictly planned but only slightly coaxed into a direction preferred by the smith.

Regards,
Kai

Rick · 28th January 2006, 11:39 PM

Is a traditionally made Japanese sword considered pattern welded ?
Not counting the hamon of course ......

Andrew · 29th January 2006, 12:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

Is a traditionally made Japanese sword considered pattern welded ?
Not counting the hamon of course ......

I think of Japanese blades as "forge folded", Rick. The distinction being that a single steel was used, and folded onto itself, whereas "pattern welding" refers to two (or more) different steels welded together during the forging process. (Inserted edges and different cores notwithstanding).

Rick · 29th January 2006, 02:15 AM

Now I'm getting a little confused .

First off I'm not a smith ; so pardon the dumb questions here .

The idea behind forging and folding two or more steels of lesser quality together is to produce a better end product ; correct ?

The reason most early Japanese swords were fold forged was to remove impurities and create an overall better steel ; no ? They worked from iron bearing sand as a source ; correct ?

Now I have two spearheads that are finely forged with many many layers ; the only real pattern that can be observed on them is on the edges ; there is no overall pattern to be seen .

Many older swords were forged under varying conditions depending on the cultures' skill at metal working and with varying rough finish qualities , differing material amounts , and layers ; some were probably fairly lumpy when fresh from the smith's hammer and had to be filed or smoothed and shaped in some way . This was not a choice but a necessity to produce a usable end product .

I'm having trouble with applying the term pattern welding here because to me that term implies *intent* to create a pattern , not something that is incidental to the manufacturing process .

I'll shut up now and listen to anyone who cares to comment .

28th January 2006, 06:16 PM	#3
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,378	In Reference To Post 23 Should these random surface patterns really be referred to as 'Pattern Welded' ? I see disorganised patterns such as these as a result of plain old layer forging rather than a planned pattern such as bird's eye which is obviously manipulated to produce the desired effect . Thoughts ?

27th January 2006, 10:35 PM	#1
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Hi All, Thank you for your answers. I too like wootz very much, but I also have the feeling that many of the pattern-welded patterns are underestimated. The explanation of the difference shown in the two pictures in mail #23 is very interesting.

28th January 2006, 09:35 PM	#5
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,378	Hi Jeff , yeah those were the two blades I was referring to . I'd like to see longer samples of each one . I guess when I think of pattern I think of repetition as in Turkish Star or Ribbon , Ladder Pattern , Rose etc . Something specifically manipulated to achieve an effect . So any blade forged in layers is in fact Pattern Welded ?

28th January 2006, 11:39 PM	#7
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,378	Is a traditionally made Japanese sword considered pattern welded ? Not counting the hamon of course ......

29th January 2006, 02:15 AM	#9
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,378	Now I'm getting a little confused . First off I'm not a smith ; so pardon the dumb questions here . The idea behind forging and folding two or more steels of lesser quality together is to produce a better end product ; correct ? The reason most early Japanese swords were fold forged was to remove impurities and create an overall better steel ; no ? They worked from iron bearing sand as a source ; correct ? Now I have two spearheads that are finely forged with many many layers ; the only real pattern that can be observed on them is on the edges ; there is no overall pattern to be seen . Many older swords were forged under varying conditions depending on the cultures' skill at metal working and with varying rough finish qualities , differing material amounts , and layers ; some were probably fairly lumpy when fresh from the smith's hammer and had to be filed or smoothed and shaped in some way . This was not a choice but a necessity to produce a usable end product . I'm having trouble with applying the term pattern welding here because to me that term implies intent to create a pattern , not something that is incidental to the manufacturing process . I'll shut up now and listen to anyone who cares to comment .