On the Origins of the so-called Berber Sabres

[Masich]

Here are two more examples of probable Spanish Colonial swords with notched horn grips and "shell" guards. One appears to be a horseman's saber with a curved, full length blade bearing the familiar "No me saques sin razon" inscription and panoply with floral flourish. The other has a heavier, shorter more cutlass-like blade.
The shell guards should, it seems to me, really be classified as a Peacock motif. The uniqueness of this design, when combined with the distinctive notched grip, may well be a clue to the origin of these swords.
Pierce Chamberlain told me the "No me saques..." sword pictured here is likely from Mexico but agreed that it exhibits Caribbean influence--but that, of course, covers a pretty broad area.The Brazilian connection (attributed to the peacock motif guard on the previously-posted sword seen on the gray background) is intriguing. Has anyone discovered more attributed specimens of this style? Are there any additional theories on the provenance of these enigmatic pieces?

Andy Masich

[ariel]

Never thought to see this thread resurrected :-)))

Jut as an afterthought to my remark from 2013(!!!), see post #53: blades do travel.

Here is my nimcha ( or saif for the purists), typical North African work, but the blade is marked "Nueva Granada 1845". Nueva Granada is, AFAIK, Colombia/Panama these days:-)

Was the blade made there and transported to Spanish Sahara?

[carlos]

I only want to help in this post with 3 pictures from spanish army museum in Toledo.
Thanks
Carlos

[Ian]

I have been a silent observer of this thread for a long time. But it seems that Carlos' post lays to rest, definitively, the Spanish colonial origins of these swords, with their first appearance in Central America and later transposition to western Africa. This has all been said before in other posts here, but Carlos' finding of an excellent exemplar in the Toledo museum seems to be the icing on the cake.

Unlike the notorious "Shaver Cool" thread which went on forever, this one seems to have reached a clear and unambiguous conclusion. The use of British M1796 light cavalry saber blades on some of these is an interesting finding, and may reflect a surplus supply of these that was repurposed for the Spanish colonies. A Prussian version of the same sword ("Blucher-sabel"--Prussian cavalry M1811) might have been the source for some of these when that model was superseded in 1858.*

Ian.

------------

Reference

* Deller R and Binck J. The Prussian Model 1811 Cavalry Sabre (or "Blücher Sabre"). Classic Arms and Militaria, vol. 8, no. 4, July/August 2001. Accessible online here

[TVV]

Carlos,

Thank you for posting a much better picture of the Toledo sword than what I was able to do a couple of years ago in post 56 of this thread. It may take some time, but I hope eventually these swords will start to be properly attributed to the Caribbean and not to the Maghreb.

Teodor

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by TVV

Carlos,

Thank you for posting a much better picture of the Toledo sword than what I was able to do a couple of years ago in post 56 of this thread. It may take some time, but I hope eventually these swords will start to be properly attributed to the Caribbean and not to the Maghreb.

Teodor

We can only hope Teodor!!!
I first got one of these 'Berber' sabres back in 1995, before they were very known, and in a few years they gradually appeared.
I also got one of the guanabacoa which was claimed to have come from Monterrey Mexico.
These finger stalled guanabacoa had turned up in a well known dealers catalog as 'Algerian' pirate swords I saw later, which seemed a bizarre attribution. I later began seeing them in other catalogs with Mexican sword groupings. In a London auction catalog, a silver mounted one was listed as a Mexican sword. The article written by Calvo describes them as Cuban, as noted by our Mexican friend Gonzalo, who has not written here in many years.

Over these past 21 years, remarkable numbers of these weapons have appeared, most of them either from Mexico or Central American contexts. Pierce Chamberlain advised me around 2001 of some of these in a catalog which were provenance to Spanish American war bring backs.

In Tirri (2004) were the examples of the 'Berber' type sabres which were associated with volunteers or some such groups in early 20th century Spanish colonies. This was the only established reference I know of which suggested North African attribution of these.

I join with Ian in thanking Carlos for the most telling photos of the sword grouping in Toledo, and Teodor I still remember your entries from those years ago.

Ibrahiim, that curious scabbard with the vertical 'beak' or whatever it is was long confounding to me as well, on the 'Berber' sabres......now known to be Central American, Spanish colonial machetes or such form swords.
A similar type fixture is seen on Ethiopian shotels in "African Arms and Armour" by Christopher Spring, and that became a kind of red herring often wondering what the Ethiopian/Berber connection was.

It has been suggested that these are a kind of 'handle' to withdraw the machete from the usually leather mount scabbards, possibly more difficult in moist tropical climes ?

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

We can only hope Teodor!!!
I first got one of these 'Berber' sabres back in 1995, before they were very known, and in a few years they gradually appeared.
I also got one of the guanabacoa which was claimed to have come from Monterrey Mexico.
These finger stalled guanabacoa had turned up in a well known dealers catalog as 'Algerian' pirate swords I saw later, which seemed a bizarre attribution. I later began seeing them in other catalogs with Mexican sword groupings. In a London auction catalog, a silver mounted one was listed as a Mexican sword. The article written by Calvo describes them as Cuban, as noted by our Mexican friend Gonzalo, who has not written here in many years.

Over these past 21 years, remarkable numbers of these weapons have appeared, most of them either from Mexico or Central American contexts. Pierce Chamberlain advised me around 2001 of some of these in a catalog which were provenance to Spanish American war bring backs.

In Tirri (2004) were the examples of the 'Berber' type sabres which were associated with volunteers or some such groups in early 20th century Spanish colonies. This was the only established reference I know of which suggested North African attribution of these.

I join with Ian in thanking Carlos for the most telling photos of the sword grouping in Toledo, and Teodor I still remember your entries from those years ago.

Ibrahiim, that curious scabbard with the vertical 'beak' or whatever it is was long confounding to me as well, on the 'Berber' sabres......now known to be Central American, Spanish colonial machetes or such form swords.
A similar type fixture is seen on Ethiopian shotels in "African Arms and Armour" by Christopher Spring, and that became a kind of red herring often wondering what the Ethiopian/Berber connection was.

It has been suggested that these are a kind of 'handle' to withdraw the machete from the usually leather mount scabbards, possibly more difficult in moist tropical climes ?

Thank you Jim, In particular about the strange 90 degree turn at the end of the scabbard. In some examples I see it as a beak?... At first I associated it with the Turkey design... In this thread http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=21715 please see the non beak version leading me to think it was either to steady the weapon when on horseback or to use that as a way of pulling the sword. In this case it appears to be Ethiopian ... and in a previous note I saw your attribution of the weapon traversing African supply/religious/ tribal routes thus perhaps it influenced North African or slave routes direct to the Atlantic slave trade stations and beyond.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Masich

Here are two more examples of probable Spanish Colonial swords with notched horn grips and "shell" guards. One appears to be a horseman's saber with a curved, full length blade bearing the familiar "No me saques sin razon" inscription and panoply with floral flourish. The other has a heavier, shorter more cutlass-like blade.
The shell guards should, it seems to me, really be classified as a Peacock motif. The uniqueness of this design, when combined with the distinctive notched grip, may well be a clue to the origin of these swords.
Pierce Chamberlain told me the "No me saques..." sword pictured here is likely from Mexico but agreed that it exhibits Caribbean influence--but that, of course, covers a pretty broad area.The Brazilian connection (attributed to the peacock motif guard on the previously-posted sword seen on the gray background) is intriguing. Has anyone discovered more attributed specimens of this style? Are there any additional theories on the provenance of these enigmatic pieces?

Andy Masich

Andy, when did you talk with Pierce??

[Masich]

I last spoke to Pierce about a month ago. He and Sid Brinckerhoff hired me as a curator at the Arizona Historical Society more than 30 years ago. Though I've moved far from the Southwest, I still love Spanish colonial and Mexican history.
I am eager to learn more about these distinctive "Brazilian" swords, though I agree with you that this attribution may be too restrictive for a form that may be more appropriately called Caribbean.
Any further thoughts on the Peacock connection?

Andy Masich

[machinist]

Perhaps it may be based on an Ocellated Turkey native to the Yucatan region rather than a Peacock, the eyes on the feather seem similar to the decorations of the shell guard.

[Masich]

Originally Posted by machinist

Perhaps it may be based on an Ocellated Turkey native to the Yucatan region rather than a Peacock, the eyes on the feather seem similar to the decorations of the shell guard.

This is a brilliant supposition! Surely you are correct--the guards all have two rows of "eyes" neatly arranged within the fan-like striations. Others, including me, who saw peacocks were all "fowled up." I'm going to start looking at Yucatan native and folk traditions.
Andy Masich
PS It makes me wonder if any of these guards may have been painted when new--can you imagine staring down a blade with all those eyes looking back at you?
PPS These turkeys in my backyard inspired me to write the peacock post in this thread in the first place--I didn't realize that these birds (or their Yucatan cousins) might have actually been the original inspiration for these sword guards.

[Masich]

Originally Posted by machinist

Perhaps it may be based on an Ocellated Turkey native to the Yucatan region rather than a Peacock, the eyes on the feather seem similar to the decorations of the shell guard.

I may be going off half "cocked" on a wild turkey chase, but if this hypothesis is correct, it could be historically significant. The ocellated turkey lives only in a 130,000 km2 (50,000 sq mi) range in the Yucatán Peninsula in Mexico—which includes all or part the states of Quintana Roo, Campeche, Yucatán, Tabasco, and Chiapas—as well as the northern parts of Belize and Guatemala. This may have been the point of origin for this guard design. The grip my have North African roots with a Spanish connection to the New World. It's also still possible that the Portuguese brought the form with captive Africans to Brazil and the general sword form may have spread from there northward to Central America, where the shell guard morphed into the turkey form seen on the guards posted.
It interesting that the Spanish were impressed with the ocellated turkeys that the natives had domesticated for their feathers for nearly 1,000 years and, later, for meat. So taken with the birds, the conquistadores exported breeding pairs back to Europe.

Andy Masich

[machinist]

It would be nice to think a piece of this puzzle is close to solved, but the answer may be for awhile "it's complicated".
The Caribbean that produced these was a rich mix indeed. I guess it is time to look at the picture collections again and hope to see a turkeys wattle or snood

[Jim McDougall]

After spending quite a bit of time rereading this thread, which clearly represents some of the most fascinating discussions we have had here through the years, it is tremendously exciting to have it revived after several years by this innovative suggestion by Andy.

It is a most astute observation and suggestion that the shell guard hilt of these apparently Central and South American swords may well be representing the peacock, or as remarkably well noted by Machinist, the Yucatan turkey. These observations present a unique opportunity to potentially assign this apparent anomaly in the widely known 'shell' type motif on guards to a specific region.
In the study of ethnographic weapons, the presence of distinct representation of something key to a region as with these birds, which is a most compelling suggestion and well worthy of more research !

The example shown by Andy is distinct in having the decorative features related to the 'eyes' in the 'plumage' as well as the head nestled against the 'plumage' and more avian appearance. It seems the other example shown earlier in this discussion has the appendage which stylistically resembles a 'head' in the same position, but not with the other 'plumage' features.
Perhaps this might be a stylized or figurative rendition of what we hope might have been a locally embellished form from Yucatan and environs.

We know that these 'shells' as guards on this type of espada from Central and South American regions typically are of the simpler striated scallop shell style, much as have existed in variation in Spanish swords from earlier times. I personally believe that the Brazilian example with the cypher of Pedro II, r, 1831-1889, is likely to have been 'from' these shell types rather than a Brazilian form inspiring them.
The key thing with the Brazilian attribution is attributing these to the more southern regions of Spain's American colonies. The hanger type espada ancha was of course established to the north and frontier regions of America's Southwest.

I hope we mighty continue looking into the compelling avian character of this unique hilt as posted by Andy, and perhaps more support for the adoption of the shell style into possibly peacock or turkey plumage as well as the embellishment using the bird head.

Thank you again Andy for posting this and the remarkably compelling suggestion!!!