WOOTZ or SHAM?

Gt Obach · 27th January 2006, 01:28 AM

Hi.. I have seen those exact blotches on some of my first blades ... .. i'm not quite sure why the pattern is like that.... it may need to be re-etched ... or may have been a problem with the last stages of lower temp heat cycling... (some spots may have been overheated abit.... and need some cycles to repattern )
-- in past experiments.... i kept etching till those spots start to pattern....but the problem is that the other places where the etch was initially decent ...now is overly etched and looking cruddy...
-- if you change solutions and acids......sometimes this can help..and a thorough degreasing
-- or bring the blade to a higher polish... (high grit) and use only a quick etch... this is a less durable etch... but allows you to see fine detail

Jens.... those are some marvelous blades !!

and i totally agree with the bottom being patternwelded..

take care
Greg

Jeff Pringle · 27th January 2006, 03:57 PM

On the patttern welded blades, the left has a low number of layers, the right a high number. Unevenness in the surface from hammering (that is later filed out) results in more layers being exposed on the surface, which is what Figiel must have been referring to when he spoke of peining.
Another factor which influences the way patterns show up on these blades is the state of hardness of the metal - A blade or area that has been fully transformed in the hardening process will etch more slowly than an area that was not hot enough or cooled too slowly to harden properly.

Gt Obach · 27th January 2006, 06:29 PM

Jeff..... i'd buy you a beer for that answer

i believe your right on !! and it makes sense.....

Greg

B.I · 27th January 2006, 07:18 PM

Hi Greg and Jeff,
I think I am in the presence of greatness!!!
please carry on as i am an enraptured spectator!
B

Jens Nordlunde · 27th January 2006, 09:35 PM

Hi All,

Thank you for your answers. I too like wootz very much, but I also have the feeling that many of the pattern-welded patterns are underestimated.

The explanation of the difference shown in the two pictures in mail #23 is very interesting.

Jeff Pringle · 28th January 2006, 05:06 PM

Quote:

many of the pattern-welded patterns are underestimated.

I think you may be right there, Jens.
Pattern welding gives the smith a much broader range of design elements, and can result in an incredible array of appearances in the finished surface. Some of the patternwelded rifle barrels in Figiel's "On Damascus Steel" are of mind-numbing complexity, with as many as ten or twenty operations on the steel to develop a specific pattern, before the metal is even made into something!
Although wootz gives less options in design, it offsets that by being rare, cool and mysterious - as modern smiths get more used to working with wootz I'm sure we'll do more with the patterning potential, there is certainly some room to explore there.

Rick · 28th January 2006, 05:16 PM

Should these random surface patterns really be referred to as 'Pattern Welded' ?
I see disorganised patterns such as these as a result of plain old layer forging rather than a planned pattern such as bird's eye which is obviously manipulated to produce the desired effect .

Thoughts ?

28th January 2006, 05:16 PM	#7
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,339	In Reference To Post 23 Should these random surface patterns really be referred to as 'Pattern Welded' ? I see disorganised patterns such as these as a result of plain old layer forging rather than a planned pattern such as bird's eye which is obviously manipulated to produce the desired effect . Thoughts ?

27th January 2006, 01:28 AM	#1
Gt Obach Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 116	Hi.. I have seen those exact blotches on some of my first blades ... .. i'm not quite sure why the pattern is like that.... it may need to be re-etched ... or may have been a problem with the last stages of lower temp heat cycling... (some spots may have been overheated abit.... and need some cycles to repattern ) -- in past experiments.... i kept etching till those spots start to pattern....but the problem is that the other places where the etch was initially decent ...now is overly etched and looking cruddy... -- if you change solutions and acids......sometimes this can help..and a thorough degreasing -- or bring the blade to a higher polish... (high grit) and use only a quick etch... this is a less durable etch... but allows you to see fine detail Jens.... those are some marvelous blades !! and i totally agree with the bottom being patternwelded.. take care Greg

27th January 2006, 03:57 PM	#2
Jeff Pringle Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 189	On the patttern welded blades, the left has a low number of layers, the right a high number. Unevenness in the surface from hammering (that is later filed out) results in more layers being exposed on the surface, which is what Figiel must have been referring to when he spoke of peining. Another factor which influences the way patterns show up on these blades is the state of hardness of the metal - A blade or area that has been fully transformed in the hardening process will etch more slowly than an area that was not hot enough or cooled too slowly to harden properly.

27th January 2006, 06:29 PM	#3
Gt Obach Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 116	Jeff..... i'd buy you a beer for that answer i believe your right on !! and it makes sense..... Greg

27th January 2006, 07:18 PM	#4
B.I Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 485	Hi Greg and Jeff, I think I am in the presence of greatness!!! please carry on as i am an enraptured spectator! B

27th January 2006, 09:35 PM	#5
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Hi All, Thank you for your answers. I too like wootz very much, but I also have the feeling that many of the pattern-welded patterns are underestimated. The explanation of the difference shown in the two pictures in mail #23 is very interesting.