Haladie

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

The weapon is closely related to the 'saintie' which is an paired blade situation often with shield in the center, sometimes even a spear on one side, or other variations.
Whatever the case, these are considered parrying weapons.

Jim, I think you may be referring to the "sainti" which is a small parrying weapon with a center grip and a blade in the middle, the "saintie" is a small parrying spear.

[kahnjar1]

http://www.oriental-arms.com/photos/...07069/ph-0.jpg
Here is another from Artzi's site

[Marcus]

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

http://www.oriental-arms.com/photos/...07069/ph-0.jpg
Here is another from Artzi's site

This is a timely thread for me since this piece from Artzi is at my local post office awaiting pick up.
Marcus

[Jim McDougall]

As has been pointed out, earlier writing and it seems definition of these double opposed blades appear to relate to the Rajput and regional development of these as in that configuration.

While these seem to have evolved as noted from paired buffalo horns crafted into similar form blades, I am wondering if perhaps the addition of the third blade (on the guard) evolved in Rajput context from the parrying weapon we have discussed.

With the concept of the transverse grip as shown, it seems this same configuration is found on the shields with dagger blade on the center boss.
It is tempting to consider whether this kind of grip position might have been associated in any way with the katar, which of course also has a transverse grip.
It would seem that in close quarters in the melee, an extra dagger blade vertically placed on the guard (or shield boss) would be handy in awkward situation with no room for wider movement of the primary blades.

The Sudanese versions of the haladie appear to of course follow the original (Rajput and Syrian) form which as suggested likely went there via Mamluk hosts, with two opposed blades. I have not seen any African versions with the extended center blade.

In looking at these transverse situated grip weapons, in Stone (from Calvert, 1908) there is a curious gauntlet type weapon shown as Spanish and referred to as the 'manople' which also uses transverse grips.
While deviating from the main topic of parrying weapons of haladie form, it seems interesting as another associated form.

P.S. Marcus, congratulations on this outstanding example from Artzi!

[Marcus]

Comments welcome

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by Marcus

Comments welcome

A nice example, what is the measurement from tip to tip? Here is a relic, the middle blade is missing, it is 26.26 inches / 66.67 cm from tip to tip. You can see that the knuckle guard is brazed to the handle.

[Marcus]

Mine is also 26 inches tip to tip.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by estcrh

Jim, I think you may be referring to the "sainti" which is a small parrying weapon with a center grip and a blade in the middle, the "saintie" is a small parrying spear.

Yes, actually I was, and thank you for that clarification, I hadn't noticed the difference in terms which clearly does indicate two like, but different featured weapons. Thank you!!!

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

see below...

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams Jim, Whilst these are considered as Indian I believe another very similar weapon appeared in the Sudan ...Please view https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6yOtCbAXq2g
In another reference please note the mention of the Madu the likely origin of this weapon formed by two horns.....and the mention of the Indian trade blade possibly being responsible for the Haladie appearing in Egypt and Sudan at http://art-of-swords.tumblr.com/post...-time-favorite
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi

[Jens Nordlunde]

The haladie which Jim shows in post 3 is dated HA 1221. Its the last of the ones he shows.

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

The haladie which Jim shows in post 3 is dated HA 1221. Its the last of the ones he shows.

Conversion of Hijri A.H. (Islamic) and A. D. Christian (Gregorian) dates, 1221=1806

[Jim McDougall]

Ibrahiim thank you for the note on the Sudanese haladie, which indeed are most often associated with these regions after the Mahdiyya, and many were brought back as trophies.
In Stone, he also notes these are referred to as 'Syrian' daggers, and I believe that the path to the Sudan was probably via the Mamluks, who ruled in Egypt as well as Syria. When they were driven out of Egypt they fled to the south and situated in Sudanese regions where many had already relocated earlier.
In my opinion this is the reason many of these are often covered in thuluth script, as that was a well known Mamluk affectation.

Jens, than you for pointing that out on the haladie I posted, and my apologies for not properly attributing it to one you had posted. I overlooked that in my notes. It is an extremely nice example!

Estcrh, I must say that I very much appreciate the examples and illustrations which you locate remarkably effectively and keenly pertinent to these discussions. I also would note that your well cited notes along with these are extremely helpful as supportive entries on those lines, which again highlights my faux pas with the one Jens had posted oops.
The conversion from Hejira to Gregorian calendar most helpful too!

[estcrh]

Here is a short essay on haladie.

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

In another reference please note the mention of the Madu the likely origin of this weapon formed by two horns.....

Madu from an Indian museum I believe and below that are steel madu, notice that the horns are semetrical and not offset as in most Indian madu and haladie, also the extreme length (33 inches) is unusual.

Indian (Maratha) madu parrying weapon, in the form of steel antelope horns, 17th century, 33 inches long. "India: Art and Culture, 1300-1900? By Stuart Cary Welch, Metropolitan Museum of Art (New York, N.Y.)