WOOTZ or SHAM?

Jens Nordlunde · 26th January 2006, 04:06 PM

What would you call this?

Jens Nordlunde · 26th January 2006, 04:07 PM

And this?

RSWORD · 26th January 2006, 04:24 PM

Alex,

In regards to Sasche book, have a look on Ebay. It pops up from time to time in the English version. With the extra pictures, it is still hard to make out the pattern of the steel due to the areas of inactivity. While I am confident both blades are wootz, in as far as how a collector would classify the watering, but very hard to say if it is a shami pattern or not. From what I can tell in the areas where the pattern does show up, it seems to have a bit more activity than one would expect with typical sham wootz.

Jens,

Lovely blades you post there. I will take a crack at these speaking strictly from a collectors viewpoint. The first example has the very tight, fine, low contrast pattern most often associated with India. In the next picture, the two swords to the left exhibit the high contrast, high activity patterning that is most often associated with Persia while the final example to the right is what I would call a classical example of Indian wootz. Tight, fine pattern with low contrast.

Jens Nordlunde · 26th January 2006, 04:58 PM

The reason why I show these three dagger blades is be course the first one has these dark blobs as well as watering, but the others don’t.

What are thise ones then? They are from tulwar blades.

RSWORD · 26th January 2006, 09:30 PM

Jens,

The last two examples you post are examples of mechanical damascus or pattern welded steel. The example on the left, with the widely scattered pattern, is according to Figiel, from peining the blade. Perhaps he means tapping on the tang will create these distortions. The example on the right is a good example of an active watering that is the result of pattern welding.

Gt Obach · 27th January 2006, 01:28 AM

Hi.. I have seen those exact blotches on some of my first blades ... .. i'm not quite sure why the pattern is like that.... it may need to be re-etched ... or may have been a problem with the last stages of lower temp heat cycling... (some spots may have been overheated abit.... and need some cycles to repattern )
-- in past experiments.... i kept etching till those spots start to pattern....but the problem is that the other places where the etch was initially decent ...now is overly etched and looking cruddy...
-- if you change solutions and acids......sometimes this can help..and a thorough degreasing
-- or bring the blade to a higher polish... (high grit) and use only a quick etch... this is a less durable etch... but allows you to see fine detail

Jens.... those are some marvelous blades !!

and i totally agree with the bottom being patternwelded..

take care
Greg

Jeff Pringle · 27th January 2006, 03:57 PM

On the patttern welded blades, the left has a low number of layers, the right a high number. Unevenness in the surface from hammering (that is later filed out) results in more layers being exposed on the surface, which is what Figiel must have been referring to when he spoke of peining.
Another factor which influences the way patterns show up on these blades is the state of hardness of the metal - A blade or area that has been fully transformed in the hardening process will etch more slowly than an area that was not hot enough or cooled too slowly to harden properly.

26th January 2006, 04:06 PM	#1
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	What would you call this? Attached Images

26th January 2006, 04:07 PM	#2
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	And this? Attached Images

26th January 2006, 04:58 PM	#4
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	The reason why I show these three dagger blades is be course the first one has these dark blobs as well as watering, but the others don’t. What are thise ones then? They are from tulwar blades. Attached Images

26th January 2006, 04:24 PM	#3
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,086	Alex, In regards to Sasche book, have a look on Ebay. It pops up from time to time in the English version. With the extra pictures, it is still hard to make out the pattern of the steel due to the areas of inactivity. While I am confident both blades are wootz, in as far as how a collector would classify the watering, but very hard to say if it is a shami pattern or not. From what I can tell in the areas where the pattern does show up, it seems to have a bit more activity than one would expect with typical sham wootz. Jens, Lovely blades you post there. I will take a crack at these speaking strictly from a collectors viewpoint. The first example has the very tight, fine, low contrast pattern most often associated with India. In the next picture, the two swords to the left exhibit the high contrast, high activity patterning that is most often associated with Persia while the final example to the right is what I would call a classical example of Indian wootz. Tight, fine pattern with low contrast.

26th January 2006, 09:30 PM	#5
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,086	Jens, The last two examples you post are examples of mechanical damascus or pattern welded steel. The example on the left, with the widely scattered pattern, is according to Figiel, from peining the blade. Perhaps he means tapping on the tang will create these distortions. The example on the right is a good example of an active watering that is the result of pattern welding.

27th January 2006, 01:28 AM	#6
Gt Obach Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 116	Hi.. I have seen those exact blotches on some of my first blades ... .. i'm not quite sure why the pattern is like that.... it may need to be re-etched ... or may have been a problem with the last stages of lower temp heat cycling... (some spots may have been overheated abit.... and need some cycles to repattern ) -- in past experiments.... i kept etching till those spots start to pattern....but the problem is that the other places where the etch was initially decent ...now is overly etched and looking cruddy... -- if you change solutions and acids......sometimes this can help..and a thorough degreasing -- or bring the blade to a higher polish... (high grit) and use only a quick etch... this is a less durable etch... but allows you to see fine detail Jens.... those are some marvelous blades !! and i totally agree with the bottom being patternwelded.. take care Greg

27th January 2006, 03:57 PM	#7
Jeff Pringle Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 189	On the patttern welded blades, the left has a low number of layers, the right a high number. Unevenness in the surface from hammering (that is later filed out) results in more layers being exposed on the surface, which is what Figiel must have been referring to when he spoke of peining. Another factor which influences the way patterns show up on these blades is the state of hardness of the metal - A blade or area that has been fully transformed in the hardening process will etch more slowly than an area that was not hot enough or cooled too slowly to harden properly.