WOOTZ or SHAM?

ALEX · 26th January 2006, 10:57 AM

What a wonderful welcome to the Forum. Thank you all who responded. Now I have more questions than before... and it's a good thing

Greg:

Your reflection on the wootz/sham issue is one of the brightest I have ever came across (well, after Ann's, of course

). And I can not agree with you more. It sounds so logical - it's either wootz or mechanical !!! ... (or am I way off changing the conventional wisdom on my second post??).

Rick:

Very short and sweet description of sham pattern. And I'll keep wootz pictures coming. It's the ONLY thing I collect, and amazingly know so little about

Also, the pattern on my blade looks more Chunky than Stripy, and if Manfred Sache categorizes Stripy damask as Sham, should the Chunky be qualified as such, IF AT ALL? (Ann, any comments?)
MORE IMPORTANTLY: If it's not Sham, what do you think it is?

Jeff:

I did not think it's a mechanical pattern, and even with all that "chunks" and blank and empty areas I inclined toward stripy (sham) wootz, but now I am not sure.

Perhaps someone will be able to identify it despite low quality photos (still can not get them right with my Kodak 3MP).

OK, now we're back where we started. The One who said: " Wootz is an amazing and magical thing" was right.

Also, Rick - do you know where can I get Manfred Sache English edition? All I could find is German one on Amazon. Thanks to all!!!

Gt Obach · 26th January 2006, 02:12 PM

Hi

yes....currently my thinking is leaning towards being historically accurate..... after all, why should we make new standards for crucible steel when there were already some in place...

i realize that what i'm trying to put forth is against the grain but something has to be said for crucible steel.... from what i understand, wootz/poulad was crucible steel made in the middle ages tradition.

I believe this post to be important to collectors, also !!!
-can you imagine if your shamshir, tulwar, kilij, with fabulous waterings... truly wonderful crucible steel...... if it was tested for carbon level and was found to have .8%....... under the current definition it would be declared " Not Wootz/poulad "
-- the value would be much less.... but yet....it still is an excellent steel, strong enough to do well in combat.... beautiful to look at.... and has interesting waterings

-yes....it is abit troubling..... so this is why we have to ask questions when scientists come up with subcatagories and redefine materials.

-from what i've been reading and rereading... the ancient catagories of crucible steel was about the surface waterings (color, pattern, region etc)

maybe i'm over reacting.... but it is definitely worth looking into

Greg

those blades are strange.... sometimes you can have some non-patterning surface decarb... and this will etch into black blobs.... but can be ground out...
- it maybe that the etch was off...... sometimes the etch will do crazy things

- lastly...... this is a long shot...... but it maybe that these blades were roasted for a very long time dissolving some of the dendritic network.....
i've noticed in the past that long roasts will give you a larger and wandering pattern..... much the opposite of the dendritic look..
so...it maybe that....but i'm truly reaching here..... .. way out !

Jeff Pringle · 26th January 2006, 03:21 PM

The new photos make me think it is not mechanical damascus, too - looks more like crucible steel to me. I'm thinking the blobs are probably decarburized areas as well, the patchy look (sharp transitions & shapes that are random, not streched out or tied tightly to the blade geometry) is consistant with a decarb layer that was not fully removed in the finishing process.

Jens Nordlunde · 26th January 2006, 04:06 PM

What would you call this?

Jens Nordlunde · 26th January 2006, 04:07 PM

And this?

RSWORD · 26th January 2006, 04:24 PM

Alex,

In regards to Sasche book, have a look on Ebay. It pops up from time to time in the English version. With the extra pictures, it is still hard to make out the pattern of the steel due to the areas of inactivity. While I am confident both blades are wootz, in as far as how a collector would classify the watering, but very hard to say if it is a shami pattern or not. From what I can tell in the areas where the pattern does show up, it seems to have a bit more activity than one would expect with typical sham wootz.

Jens,

Lovely blades you post there. I will take a crack at these speaking strictly from a collectors viewpoint. The first example has the very tight, fine, low contrast pattern most often associated with India. In the next picture, the two swords to the left exhibit the high contrast, high activity patterning that is most often associated with Persia while the final example to the right is what I would call a classical example of Indian wootz. Tight, fine pattern with low contrast.

Jens Nordlunde · 26th January 2006, 04:58 PM

The reason why I show these three dagger blades is be course the first one has these dark blobs as well as watering, but the others don’t.

What are thise ones then? They are from tulwar blades.

26th January 2006, 10:57 AM	#1
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 936	What a wonderful welcome to the Forum. Thank you all who responded. Now I have more questions than before... and it's a good thing Greg: Your reflection on the wootz/sham issue is one of the brightest I have ever came across (well, after Ann's, of course ). And I can not agree with you more. It sounds so logical - it's either wootz or mechanical !!! ... (or am I way off changing the conventional wisdom on my second post??). Rick: Very short and sweet description of sham pattern. And I'll keep wootz pictures coming. It's the ONLY thing I collect, and amazingly know so little about Also, the pattern on my blade looks more Chunky than Stripy, and if Manfred Sache categorizes Stripy damask as Sham, should the Chunky be qualified as such, IF AT ALL? (Ann, any comments?) MORE IMPORTANTLY: If it's not Sham, what do you think it is? Jeff: I did not think it's a mechanical pattern, and even with all that "chunks" and blank and empty areas I inclined toward stripy (sham) wootz, but now I am not sure. Perhaps someone will be able to identify it despite low quality photos (still can not get them right with my Kodak 3MP). OK, now we're back where we started. The One who said: " Wootz is an amazing and magical thing" was right. Also, Rick - do you know where can I get Manfred Sache English edition? All I could find is German one on Amazon. Thanks to all!!! Attached Images

26th January 2006, 04:06 PM	#4
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	What would you call this? Attached Images

26th January 2006, 04:07 PM	#5
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	And this? Attached Images

26th January 2006, 04:58 PM	#7
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	The reason why I show these three dagger blades is be course the first one has these dark blobs as well as watering, but the others don’t. What are thise ones then? They are from tulwar blades. Attached Images

26th January 2006, 02:12 PM	#2
Gt Obach Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 116	Hi yes....currently my thinking is leaning towards being historically accurate..... after all, why should we make new standards for crucible steel when there were already some in place... i realize that what i'm trying to put forth is against the grain but something has to be said for crucible steel.... from what i understand, wootz/poulad was crucible steel made in the middle ages tradition. I believe this post to be important to collectors, also !!! -can you imagine if your shamshir, tulwar, kilij, with fabulous waterings... truly wonderful crucible steel...... if it was tested for carbon level and was found to have .8%....... under the current definition it would be declared " Not Wootz/poulad " -- the value would be much less.... but yet....it still is an excellent steel, strong enough to do well in combat.... beautiful to look at.... and has interesting waterings -yes....it is abit troubling..... so this is why we have to ask questions when scientists come up with subcatagories and redefine materials. -from what i've been reading and rereading... the ancient catagories of crucible steel was about the surface waterings (color, pattern, region etc) maybe i'm over reacting.... but it is definitely worth looking into Greg those blades are strange.... sometimes you can have some non-patterning surface decarb... and this will etch into black blobs.... but can be ground out... - it maybe that the etch was off...... sometimes the etch will do crazy things - lastly...... this is a long shot...... but it maybe that these blades were roasted for a very long time dissolving some of the dendritic network..... i've noticed in the past that long roasts will give you a larger and wandering pattern..... much the opposite of the dendritic look.. so...it maybe that....but i'm truly reaching here..... .. way out !

26th January 2006, 03:21 PM	#3
Jeff Pringle Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 189	The new photos make me think it is not mechanical damascus, too - looks more like crucible steel to me. I'm thinking the blobs are probably decarburized areas as well, the patchy look (sharp transitions & shapes that are random, not streched out or tied tightly to the blade geometry) is consistant with a decarb layer that was not fully removed in the finishing process.

26th January 2006, 04:24 PM	#6
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,087	Alex, In regards to Sasche book, have a look on Ebay. It pops up from time to time in the English version. With the extra pictures, it is still hard to make out the pattern of the steel due to the areas of inactivity. While I am confident both blades are wootz, in as far as how a collector would classify the watering, but very hard to say if it is a shami pattern or not. From what I can tell in the areas where the pattern does show up, it seems to have a bit more activity than one would expect with typical sham wootz. Jens, Lovely blades you post there. I will take a crack at these speaking strictly from a collectors viewpoint. The first example has the very tight, fine, low contrast pattern most often associated with India. In the next picture, the two swords to the left exhibit the high contrast, high activity patterning that is most often associated with Persia while the final example to the right is what I would call a classical example of Indian wootz. Tight, fine pattern with low contrast.