Shashka??? Or what ????

ALEX · 30th March 2016, 05:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by estcrh

It depends, Ottoman kilij can have many types of blades and still be recognizable.

This is true. the last sword I'd call Ottoman shamshir, not because of Kilij type hilt but because of shamshir type blade

Jim McDougall · 30th March 2016, 05:59 AM

Thank you Ariel, we are entirely on the same page. I also agree that this sabre is a genuinely produced of the period sword fully intended for use, and probably Afghan regions 19th c.
I am really curious about that starburst device on the hilt, and wish I could find the images of the embossed metalwork on what I think was a Kubachi hilted shashka with that incorporated in the context. I have seen Daghestani shaskas with small silver devices emplaced in the same location with the suggestion these were awards or similar devices.

I also remain curious on that finger nock at the base of the grip and feel sure I have seen similar on other sabres, but again cannot place yet.

On the terms for these weapon forms, indeed these are pretty much locked into our glossaries of arms with these European versions of what was contrived to be the proper names for them. Probably one of the most bizarre and fanciful examples (fortunately used only in romanticized narratives or novels) is the term 'scimitar .

Alex, agreed on that last image, in fact it seems examples I have seen with the Ottoman 'pistol grip' hilt and distinct shamshir blades were indeed termed 'Ottoman shamshirs'......thus properly qualifying the shamshir with that denomination.

David R · 30th March 2016, 12:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

I also remain curious on that finger nock at the base of the grip and feel sure I have seen similar on other sabres, but again cannot place yet.

It appears on Sassanid hilts, as illustrated below, and crops up on early Shamshirs. The Armouries Leeds has a nice one on display.

Jim McDougall · 30th March 2016, 04:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David R

It appears on Sassanid hilts, as illustrated below, and crops up on early Shamshirs. The Armouries Leeds has a nice one on display.

Beautifully caught David!!! Thank you so much

I knew I had seen it and thought perhaps on shamshirs but could not place it. I had totally forgotten these key Sassanid swords.

estcrh · 30th March 2016, 06:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ALEX

This is true. the last sword I'd call Ottoman shamshir, not because of Kilij type hilt but because of shamshir type blade

Both terms would be correct, it is an Ottoman kilij and Ottoman shamshir.

The pulwar is another example, they can have several different blade types but the hilt identifies them.

30th March 2016, 05:59 AM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,195	Thank you Ariel, we are entirely on the same page. I also agree that this sabre is a genuinely produced of the period sword fully intended for use, and probably Afghan regions 19th c. I am really curious about that starburst device on the hilt, and wish I could find the images of the embossed metalwork on what I think was a Kubachi hilted shashka with that incorporated in the context. I have seen Daghestani shaskas with small silver devices emplaced in the same location with the suggestion these were awards or similar devices. I also remain curious on that finger nock at the base of the grip and feel sure I have seen similar on other sabres, but again cannot place yet. On the terms for these weapon forms, indeed these are pretty much locked into our glossaries of arms with these European versions of what was contrived to be the proper names for them. Probably one of the most bizarre and fanciful examples (fortunately used only in romanticized narratives or novels) is the term 'scimitar . Alex, agreed on that last image, in fact it seems examples I have seen with the Ottoman 'pistol grip' hilt and distinct shamshir blades were indeed termed 'Ottoman shamshirs'......thus properly qualifying the shamshir with that denomination.