WOOTZ or SHAM?

Gt Obach · 25th January 2006, 06:29 PM

i'll tell you a story..... when i was starting to make crucible steel... i was testing the boundaries of wootz.... so i deliberately made an ingot to have a carb level bellow 1%.... ( a sort of control experiment)
I forged it out.... heat treated and etched in the standard way..... suprised to see a nice watered pattern come out with a very short etch time.... ... confused, i shuffled this blade to the back of the pile thinking that i either -- goofed up the calculation for carb levels or... extra carbon was borrowed from the crucible...
-- anyhow.. i gave it to a friend and didn't look back....

now... Jeff had posted a knife awhile back that had a wootzy look.... but he'd stated that it was too low a carb to be wootz..... yet it looks identical to an Indian blade i've seen..... so what ? well if Jeff didn't have that blade tested, would he have known to catagorize this blade as " not wootz ".....
-- is this another No.8 sword ???

so what it boils down to is...... are we to split the hypoeutectic watered crucible steel (low carbon steel) off of the definition of wootz (basically following verhoeven's lead and discounting sword no 8's existence) or are we to look at the whole sample of watered steels from the middle ages and be inclusive of No 8

i'm not sure i can come up with a definition of wootz at the moment... if anything, I think it is just a crucible steel that is made in the wootz tradition of the middle ages...

I believe Jeff's point is excellent.... we should try to revisit Al-Kindi's classifications of watered steels... and look here for some answers

Greg

kai · 25th January 2006, 10:19 PM

How about the functional aspect? Would a wootzy blade forged from a low carbon ingot live up to expectations under martial use?

Greg, did you ever tested edge holding of your experimental blades?

Regards,
Kai

Gt Obach · 26th January 2006, 12:45 AM

yes the low carb wootz.....as long as its above .6% carb would make an excellent knife... ... i did not test that particular blade for edge holding but whenever i finish quenching a blade...... i test its hardness by running a small file on its edge......... if the file skates on the edge without biting the metal.....it is then very hard !! ( around 60rc) and off to the temper oven it goes to relieve some hardness and give it some toughness...

I believe the low carb wootz would do well in martial use...

Greg

ps.....the high carb wootz blade do hold a nice edge

Jeff Pringle · 26th January 2006, 01:16 AM

Quote:

Would a wootzy blade forged from a low carbon ingot live up to expectations under martial use?

Yes, we're talking 'low carbon' compared to Verhoeven's definition of wootz, but that puts the hypothetical blade into the normal sword range. The higher carbon blades should be able to get sharper & hold the edge longer, but the lower carbon variety would function as well as a blade made from 'normal' steel.

ALEX · 26th January 2006, 10:57 AM

What a wonderful welcome to the Forum. Thank you all who responded. Now I have more questions than before... and it's a good thing

Greg:

Your reflection on the wootz/sham issue is one of the brightest I have ever came across (well, after Ann's, of course

). And I can not agree with you more. It sounds so logical - it's either wootz or mechanical !!! ... (or am I way off changing the conventional wisdom on my second post??).

Rick:

Very short and sweet description of sham pattern. And I'll keep wootz pictures coming. It's the ONLY thing I collect, and amazingly know so little about

Also, the pattern on my blade looks more Chunky than Stripy, and if Manfred Sache categorizes Stripy damask as Sham, should the Chunky be qualified as such, IF AT ALL? (Ann, any comments?)
MORE IMPORTANTLY: If it's not Sham, what do you think it is?

Jeff:

I did not think it's a mechanical pattern, and even with all that "chunks" and blank and empty areas I inclined toward stripy (sham) wootz, but now I am not sure.

Perhaps someone will be able to identify it despite low quality photos (still can not get them right with my Kodak 3MP).

OK, now we're back where we started. The One who said: " Wootz is an amazing and magical thing" was right.

Also, Rick - do you know where can I get Manfred Sache English edition? All I could find is German one on Amazon. Thanks to all!!!

Gt Obach · 26th January 2006, 02:12 PM

Hi

yes....currently my thinking is leaning towards being historically accurate..... after all, why should we make new standards for crucible steel when there were already some in place...

i realize that what i'm trying to put forth is against the grain but something has to be said for crucible steel.... from what i understand, wootz/poulad was crucible steel made in the middle ages tradition.

I believe this post to be important to collectors, also !!!
-can you imagine if your shamshir, tulwar, kilij, with fabulous waterings... truly wonderful crucible steel...... if it was tested for carbon level and was found to have .8%....... under the current definition it would be declared " Not Wootz/poulad "
-- the value would be much less.... but yet....it still is an excellent steel, strong enough to do well in combat.... beautiful to look at.... and has interesting waterings

-yes....it is abit troubling..... so this is why we have to ask questions when scientists come up with subcatagories and redefine materials.

-from what i've been reading and rereading... the ancient catagories of crucible steel was about the surface waterings (color, pattern, region etc)

maybe i'm over reacting.... but it is definitely worth looking into

Greg

those blades are strange.... sometimes you can have some non-patterning surface decarb... and this will etch into black blobs.... but can be ground out...
- it maybe that the etch was off...... sometimes the etch will do crazy things

- lastly...... this is a long shot...... but it maybe that these blades were roasted for a very long time dissolving some of the dendritic network.....
i've noticed in the past that long roasts will give you a larger and wandering pattern..... much the opposite of the dendritic look..
so...it maybe that....but i'm truly reaching here..... .. way out !

Jeff Pringle · 26th January 2006, 03:21 PM

The new photos make me think it is not mechanical damascus, too - looks more like crucible steel to me. I'm thinking the blobs are probably decarburized areas as well, the patchy look (sharp transitions & shapes that are random, not streched out or tied tightly to the blade geometry) is consistant with a decarb layer that was not fully removed in the finishing process.

kai · 28th January 2006, 10:37 PM

Thanks, Jeff.

Quote:

Yes, we're talking 'low carbon' compared to Verhoeven's definition of wootz, but that puts the hypothetical blade into the normal sword range.

Normal for (high quality) Indo-Persian non-wootz steel?

Quote:

The higher carbon blades should be able to get sharper & hold the edge longer, but the lower carbon variety would function as well as a blade made from 'normal' steel.

My assumption is that wootz didn't gained its early fame for its beauty but rather for its exceptional functional properties (as already noted in this thread, pattern welding gives much more possibilities for the smith if the major consideration is only a beautiful blade).

I'd expect that a "wootzy" blade with lower carbon content than high-carbon wootz which properties don't stand above regular steel blades would be considered inferior by people who actually used these weapons (and whose survival might have depended on any little advantage). Is there anything along these lines hinted at in the historical sources?

Regards,
Kai

26th January 2006, 10:57 AM	#5
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 936	What a wonderful welcome to the Forum. Thank you all who responded. Now I have more questions than before... and it's a good thing Greg: Your reflection on the wootz/sham issue is one of the brightest I have ever came across (well, after Ann's, of course ). And I can not agree with you more. It sounds so logical - it's either wootz or mechanical !!! ... (or am I way off changing the conventional wisdom on my second post??). Rick: Very short and sweet description of sham pattern. And I'll keep wootz pictures coming. It's the ONLY thing I collect, and amazingly know so little about Also, the pattern on my blade looks more Chunky than Stripy, and if Manfred Sache categorizes Stripy damask as Sham, should the Chunky be qualified as such, IF AT ALL? (Ann, any comments?) MORE IMPORTANTLY: If it's not Sham, what do you think it is? Jeff: I did not think it's a mechanical pattern, and even with all that "chunks" and blank and empty areas I inclined toward stripy (sham) wootz, but now I am not sure. Perhaps someone will be able to identify it despite low quality photos (still can not get them right with my Kodak 3MP). OK, now we're back where we started. The One who said: " Wootz is an amazing and magical thing" was right. Also, Rick - do you know where can I get Manfred Sache English edition? All I could find is German one on Amazon. Thanks to all!!! Attached Images

25th January 2006, 06:29 PM	#1
Gt Obach Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 116	i'll tell you a story..... when i was starting to make crucible steel... i was testing the boundaries of wootz.... so i deliberately made an ingot to have a carb level bellow 1%.... ( a sort of control experiment) I forged it out.... heat treated and etched in the standard way..... suprised to see a nice watered pattern come out with a very short etch time.... ... confused, i shuffled this blade to the back of the pile thinking that i either -- goofed up the calculation for carb levels or... extra carbon was borrowed from the crucible... -- anyhow.. i gave it to a friend and didn't look back.... now... Jeff had posted a knife awhile back that had a wootzy look.... but he'd stated that it was too low a carb to be wootz..... yet it looks identical to an Indian blade i've seen..... so what ? well if Jeff didn't have that blade tested, would he have known to catagorize this blade as " not wootz "..... -- is this another No.8 sword ??? so what it boils down to is...... are we to split the hypoeutectic watered crucible steel (low carbon steel) off of the definition of wootz (basically following verhoeven's lead and discounting sword no 8's existence) or are we to look at the whole sample of watered steels from the middle ages and be inclusive of No 8 i'm not sure i can come up with a definition of wootz at the moment... if anything, I think it is just a crucible steel that is made in the wootz tradition of the middle ages... I believe Jeff's point is excellent.... we should try to revisit Al-Kindi's classifications of watered steels... and look here for some answers Greg

25th January 2006, 10:19 PM	#2
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,255	How about the functional aspect? Would a wootzy blade forged from a low carbon ingot live up to expectations under martial use? Greg, did you ever tested edge holding of your experimental blades? Regards, Kai

26th January 2006, 12:45 AM	#3
Gt Obach Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 116	yes the low carb wootz.....as long as its above .6% carb would make an excellent knife... ... i did not test that particular blade for edge holding but whenever i finish quenching a blade...... i test its hardness by running a small file on its edge......... if the file skates on the edge without biting the metal.....it is then very hard !! ( around 60rc) and off to the temper oven it goes to relieve some hardness and give it some toughness... I believe the low carb wootz would do well in martial use... Greg ps.....the high carb wootz blade do hold a nice edge

26th January 2006, 02:12 PM	#6
Gt Obach Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 116	Hi yes....currently my thinking is leaning towards being historically accurate..... after all, why should we make new standards for crucible steel when there were already some in place... i realize that what i'm trying to put forth is against the grain but something has to be said for crucible steel.... from what i understand, wootz/poulad was crucible steel made in the middle ages tradition. I believe this post to be important to collectors, also !!! -can you imagine if your shamshir, tulwar, kilij, with fabulous waterings... truly wonderful crucible steel...... if it was tested for carbon level and was found to have .8%....... under the current definition it would be declared " Not Wootz/poulad " -- the value would be much less.... but yet....it still is an excellent steel, strong enough to do well in combat.... beautiful to look at.... and has interesting waterings -yes....it is abit troubling..... so this is why we have to ask questions when scientists come up with subcatagories and redefine materials. -from what i've been reading and rereading... the ancient catagories of crucible steel was about the surface waterings (color, pattern, region etc) maybe i'm over reacting.... but it is definitely worth looking into Greg those blades are strange.... sometimes you can have some non-patterning surface decarb... and this will etch into black blobs.... but can be ground out... - it maybe that the etch was off...... sometimes the etch will do crazy things - lastly...... this is a long shot...... but it maybe that these blades were roasted for a very long time dissolving some of the dendritic network..... i've noticed in the past that long roasts will give you a larger and wandering pattern..... much the opposite of the dendritic look.. so...it maybe that....but i'm truly reaching here..... .. way out !

26th January 2006, 03:21 PM	#7
Jeff Pringle Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 189	The new photos make me think it is not mechanical damascus, too - looks more like crucible steel to me. I'm thinking the blobs are probably decarburized areas as well, the patchy look (sharp transitions & shapes that are random, not streched out or tied tightly to the blade geometry) is consistant with a decarb layer that was not fully removed in the finishing process.