WOOTZ or SHAM?

Jeff Pringle · 25th January 2006, 03:42 PM

Quote:

Before this moment in time..... that sword was concidered wootz !!...

I too think this is an important point, and that historically hypo-eutectoid steels were considered wootz - but it also might be that you, me, Ann and Ric are the only ones who care about this subject on such a technical/historical level.

I think we should revisit some of the earlier descriptions of the watering - Didn't al-Kindi desribe several types? One of those is quite possibly a reference to the lower carbon variety. And the sword in the bottom pic looks like it might be of that ilk (just to keep to the initial subject)...

Jens Nordlunde · 25th January 2006, 05:19 PM

Hi Jeff, Greg and Ann,

No you, Greg and Ann are not the only ones interested in this subject – I am too. Only my knowledge about the subject is far too little to join the discussion, other than ask the stupid questions – so that is what I will do.

How about one of you writing a ‘Wootz for Dummies’, that might help many of us.

Is it so, that in theory sham has less carbon than 0.8, and wootz has more than 0.8?

When I write ‘in theory’ it is be course of what Greg wrote. I have understood that the smith, if the difference of carbon is not too big, can make a blade after his own wishes, is that correct? Earlier this was of course impossible, as they could not measure the carbon.

When the crucibles were made ready for melting, this of course would mean that none of them would be exactly the same, as the amount of organic stuff you put into each could/would differ from crucible to crucible, also meaning that the man maintaining the work had to be very accurate. Some were, others were not. This could explain what I have read about the Arabian merchants having people living in India to check the crucibles before they were exported – as some were of a lesser quality.

Gt Obach · 25th January 2006, 06:29 PM

i'll tell you a story..... when i was starting to make crucible steel... i was testing the boundaries of wootz.... so i deliberately made an ingot to have a carb level bellow 1%.... ( a sort of control experiment)
I forged it out.... heat treated and etched in the standard way..... suprised to see a nice watered pattern come out with a very short etch time.... ... confused, i shuffled this blade to the back of the pile thinking that i either -- goofed up the calculation for carb levels or... extra carbon was borrowed from the crucible...
-- anyhow.. i gave it to a friend and didn't look back....

now... Jeff had posted a knife awhile back that had a wootzy look.... but he'd stated that it was too low a carb to be wootz..... yet it looks identical to an Indian blade i've seen..... so what ? well if Jeff didn't have that blade tested, would he have known to catagorize this blade as " not wootz ".....
-- is this another No.8 sword ???

so what it boils down to is...... are we to split the hypoeutectic watered crucible steel (low carbon steel) off of the definition of wootz (basically following verhoeven's lead and discounting sword no 8's existence) or are we to look at the whole sample of watered steels from the middle ages and be inclusive of No 8

i'm not sure i can come up with a definition of wootz at the moment... if anything, I think it is just a crucible steel that is made in the wootz tradition of the middle ages...

I believe Jeff's point is excellent.... we should try to revisit Al-Kindi's classifications of watered steels... and look here for some answers

Greg

kai · 25th January 2006, 10:19 PM

How about the functional aspect? Would a wootzy blade forged from a low carbon ingot live up to expectations under martial use?

Greg, did you ever tested edge holding of your experimental blades?

Regards,
Kai

Gt Obach · 26th January 2006, 12:45 AM

yes the low carb wootz.....as long as its above .6% carb would make an excellent knife... ... i did not test that particular blade for edge holding but whenever i finish quenching a blade...... i test its hardness by running a small file on its edge......... if the file skates on the edge without biting the metal.....it is then very hard !! ( around 60rc) and off to the temper oven it goes to relieve some hardness and give it some toughness...

I believe the low carb wootz would do well in martial use...

Greg

ps.....the high carb wootz blade do hold a nice edge

Jeff Pringle · 26th January 2006, 01:16 AM

Quote:

Would a wootzy blade forged from a low carbon ingot live up to expectations under martial use?

Yes, we're talking 'low carbon' compared to Verhoeven's definition of wootz, but that puts the hypothetical blade into the normal sword range. The higher carbon blades should be able to get sharper & hold the edge longer, but the lower carbon variety would function as well as a blade made from 'normal' steel.

ALEX · 26th January 2006, 10:57 AM

What a wonderful welcome to the Forum. Thank you all who responded. Now I have more questions than before... and it's a good thing

Greg:

Your reflection on the wootz/sham issue is one of the brightest I have ever came across (well, after Ann's, of course

). And I can not agree with you more. It sounds so logical - it's either wootz or mechanical !!! ... (or am I way off changing the conventional wisdom on my second post??).

Rick:

Very short and sweet description of sham pattern. And I'll keep wootz pictures coming. It's the ONLY thing I collect, and amazingly know so little about

Also, the pattern on my blade looks more Chunky than Stripy, and if Manfred Sache categorizes Stripy damask as Sham, should the Chunky be qualified as such, IF AT ALL? (Ann, any comments?)
MORE IMPORTANTLY: If it's not Sham, what do you think it is?

Jeff:

I did not think it's a mechanical pattern, and even with all that "chunks" and blank and empty areas I inclined toward stripy (sham) wootz, but now I am not sure.

Perhaps someone will be able to identify it despite low quality photos (still can not get them right with my Kodak 3MP).

OK, now we're back where we started. The One who said: " Wootz is an amazing and magical thing" was right.

Also, Rick - do you know where can I get Manfred Sache English edition? All I could find is German one on Amazon. Thanks to all!!!

kai · 28th January 2006, 10:37 PM

Thanks, Jeff.

Quote:

Yes, we're talking 'low carbon' compared to Verhoeven's definition of wootz, but that puts the hypothetical blade into the normal sword range.

Normal for (high quality) Indo-Persian non-wootz steel?

Quote:

The higher carbon blades should be able to get sharper & hold the edge longer, but the lower carbon variety would function as well as a blade made from 'normal' steel.

My assumption is that wootz didn't gained its early fame for its beauty but rather for its exceptional functional properties (as already noted in this thread, pattern welding gives much more possibilities for the smith if the major consideration is only a beautiful blade).

I'd expect that a "wootzy" blade with lower carbon content than high-carbon wootz which properties don't stand above regular steel blades would be considered inferior by people who actually used these weapons (and whose survival might have depended on any little advantage). Is there anything along these lines hinted at in the historical sources?

Regards,
Kai

26th January 2006, 10:57 AM	#7
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 936	What a wonderful welcome to the Forum. Thank you all who responded. Now I have more questions than before... and it's a good thing Greg: Your reflection on the wootz/sham issue is one of the brightest I have ever came across (well, after Ann's, of course ). And I can not agree with you more. It sounds so logical - it's either wootz or mechanical !!! ... (or am I way off changing the conventional wisdom on my second post??). Rick: Very short and sweet description of sham pattern. And I'll keep wootz pictures coming. It's the ONLY thing I collect, and amazingly know so little about Also, the pattern on my blade looks more Chunky than Stripy, and if Manfred Sache categorizes Stripy damask as Sham, should the Chunky be qualified as such, IF AT ALL? (Ann, any comments?) MORE IMPORTANTLY: If it's not Sham, what do you think it is? Jeff: I did not think it's a mechanical pattern, and even with all that "chunks" and blank and empty areas I inclined toward stripy (sham) wootz, but now I am not sure. Perhaps someone will be able to identify it despite low quality photos (still can not get them right with my Kodak 3MP). OK, now we're back where we started. The One who said: " Wootz is an amazing and magical thing" was right. Also, Rick - do you know where can I get Manfred Sache English edition? All I could find is German one on Amazon. Thanks to all!!! Attached Images

25th January 2006, 05:19 PM	#2
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Hi Jeff, Greg and Ann, No you, Greg and Ann are not the only ones interested in this subject – I am too. Only my knowledge about the subject is far too little to join the discussion, other than ask the stupid questions – so that is what I will do. How about one of you writing a ‘Wootz for Dummies’, that might help many of us. Is it so, that in theory sham has less carbon than 0.8, and wootz has more than 0.8? When I write ‘in theory’ it is be course of what Greg wrote. I have understood that the smith, if the difference of carbon is not too big, can make a blade after his own wishes, is that correct? Earlier this was of course impossible, as they could not measure the carbon. When the crucibles were made ready for melting, this of course would mean that none of them would be exactly the same, as the amount of organic stuff you put into each could/would differ from crucible to crucible, also meaning that the man maintaining the work had to be very accurate. Some were, others were not. This could explain what I have read about the Arabian merchants having people living in India to check the crucibles before they were exported – as some were of a lesser quality.

25th January 2006, 06:29 PM	#3
Gt Obach Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 116	i'll tell you a story..... when i was starting to make crucible steel... i was testing the boundaries of wootz.... so i deliberately made an ingot to have a carb level bellow 1%.... ( a sort of control experiment) I forged it out.... heat treated and etched in the standard way..... suprised to see a nice watered pattern come out with a very short etch time.... ... confused, i shuffled this blade to the back of the pile thinking that i either -- goofed up the calculation for carb levels or... extra carbon was borrowed from the crucible... -- anyhow.. i gave it to a friend and didn't look back.... now... Jeff had posted a knife awhile back that had a wootzy look.... but he'd stated that it was too low a carb to be wootz..... yet it looks identical to an Indian blade i've seen..... so what ? well if Jeff didn't have that blade tested, would he have known to catagorize this blade as " not wootz "..... -- is this another No.8 sword ??? so what it boils down to is...... are we to split the hypoeutectic watered crucible steel (low carbon steel) off of the definition of wootz (basically following verhoeven's lead and discounting sword no 8's existence) or are we to look at the whole sample of watered steels from the middle ages and be inclusive of No 8 i'm not sure i can come up with a definition of wootz at the moment... if anything, I think it is just a crucible steel that is made in the wootz tradition of the middle ages... I believe Jeff's point is excellent.... we should try to revisit Al-Kindi's classifications of watered steels... and look here for some answers Greg

25th January 2006, 10:19 PM	#4
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,255	How about the functional aspect? Would a wootzy blade forged from a low carbon ingot live up to expectations under martial use? Greg, did you ever tested edge holding of your experimental blades? Regards, Kai

26th January 2006, 12:45 AM	#5
Gt Obach Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 116	yes the low carb wootz.....as long as its above .6% carb would make an excellent knife... ... i did not test that particular blade for edge holding but whenever i finish quenching a blade...... i test its hardness by running a small file on its edge......... if the file skates on the edge without biting the metal.....it is then very hard !! ( around 60rc) and off to the temper oven it goes to relieve some hardness and give it some toughness... I believe the low carb wootz would do well in martial use... Greg ps.....the high carb wootz blade do hold a nice edge