WOOTZ or SHAM?

Gt Obach · 24th January 2006, 06:01 PM

hi
the sham pattern can be produced with both hyper and hypo eutectic steel.... ofcourse.... my idea of a sham pattern is where the waterings are very straight... the pattern is controled by how the igot is drawn out.... if you want a very straight pattern... simply use hammers with very flat faces..... it takes longer to make ...

now for real interesting waterings.... you forge the blade out with round face hammers.....and do lot's of fullering to draw the ingot out.... ... now the drastic deformation of the surface helps the waterings to become much more chaotic..

its really more about pattern control and forge techniques.....

however....i'm not sure about the swoopy patterns.... i've gotten weird pattern when i etched blades that weren't totally degrease.... but that a different matter..

Greg

Ann Feuerbach · 24th January 2006, 06:45 PM

Hello,
I guess it all boils down again to how one defines a Sham pattern.

Ian · 24th January 2006, 07:14 PM

Welcome to the forum, Alex. Hope you enjoy your time here.

As you have already seen, some of our members are very knowledgeable about steel patterns.

Ian.

Lew · 24th January 2006, 07:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ann Feuerbach

Hello,
I guess it all boils down again to how one defines a Sham pattern.

Hi Ann

OK,Sham=Something false or empty that is purported to be genuine; a spurious imitation or A decorative cover made to simulate an article of household linen and used over or in place of it: Oh sorry you mean a steel pattern I should be a sham ed

Sorry I just couldn't help myself

Lew

RSWORD · 24th January 2006, 11:37 PM

There is a very wide variety of opinions about the classification of wootz, what is wootz, how do you classify, etc. I think it can even be split into technical aspects and collector aspects. Speaking from a collector aspect, Sham wootz is most often associated, again from a collectors perspective, with Turkish or Syrian wootz or shall I say that this pattern of wootz is most often associated with those regions. I believe Sham is another word for Syrian. As Greg points out, the sham pattern is mostly recognized as long flowing lines without circular distortions, partial rungs or full rungs. I am afraid I am away and am unable to post an example to illustrate.

It is hard to tell from your example but it appears that your first example has some dead spots or inactivity in the patterning most probably due to a failure to control the heat during forging. In the sections where the pattern is visible, it seems to not exhibit the typical sham pattern. The second example also does not appear to be an example of sham.

A favorite topic of mine so welcome to the forum and keep the wootz posts coming!

Jeff Pringle · 25th January 2006, 05:13 AM

I thought sham meant plain steel that was etched to look like it was wootz/pattern welded?
To photograph patterns in steels, it is often easiest to get a uniform reflection by taking the photo with the blade outside, positioned in such a way as to reflect an overcast sky - you get a very clear shot of the pattern if the blade is lit with uniform, diffuse light.
The parallel lines (to the right) in the middle photo indicate that blade might be pattern welded steel, but the photos are indistinct enough to make any attribution a guess.

Gt Obach · 25th January 2006, 02:31 PM

after rereading some of Al-Kindi's words on arabic swords.... i still feel that we are getting too strict with our definitions of wootz/poulad steel. I'm still leaning towards all the crucible steels made in the middle ages, wootz tradition as being wootz steel.... this includes even the lower carbon hypo eutectic's with good pattern..

it is a good matter for discussion..... i'm personally open minded to all of it..

ask yourself these questions.?
-- do you think that if the Indian steel makers made a hypo eutectic ingot, and forged it into a sword.... that they wouldn't call it wootz ? specially if it had a watered pattern?

-- would it be more likely that they'd have a catagory of quality for such wootz.... noting it's difference from the high carbon wootz.... specially in terms of observable pattern.. !!

-- remember......they had no way to tell the carbon level of this wootz..... (no mass spectrometer etc )

maybe i'm getting too excited over nothing..... but i feel that our modern definition is getting away from the middle ages tradition..... as i have mentioned before

if sham isn't wootz......... then what about the dendritc pattern.... i've seen this on indian swords..... where there is very little roast time and the watering is very grid like....... are these to be excluded too!

i hope there is to be more open dialog on this topic... it's important to discuss this

Greg

Gt Obach · 25th January 2006, 03:23 PM

when reading Verhoeven's study on " the key role of impurities in damascus blades" .... he bases his idea on wootz from the Zschokke blades..... yet he totally discounts the analysis of sword no. 8 because it was hypoeutectic.....

Before this moment in time..... that sword was concidered wootz !!... obviously so because it was a selected sample for testing and characterizing wootz steel.....
-- it must have showed typical wootz pattern with a watered surface !!
--. So ....if the observable features of this sword fooled the scientists in this study.... do you think that the Ancient Indians could be more thorough ?? and discriminatory

.... now after being discluded from the acceptable ranges of wootz steel is this study.... it is here by declared " Not Wootz "

at university, they drummed it into my head to ask the question " Why "..... and to test all theories for repeatability....

the modern definition of wootz is holding less and less water, for me !

Greg

24th January 2006, 07:14 PM	#3
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,396	Welcome Welcome to the forum, Alex. Hope you enjoy your time here. As you have already seen, some of our members are very knowledgeable about steel patterns. Ian.

24th January 2006, 06:01 PM	#1
Gt Obach Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 116	hi the sham pattern can be produced with both hyper and hypo eutectic steel.... ofcourse.... my idea of a sham pattern is where the waterings are very straight... the pattern is controled by how the igot is drawn out.... if you want a very straight pattern... simply use hammers with very flat faces..... it takes longer to make ... now for real interesting waterings.... you forge the blade out with round face hammers.....and do lot's of fullering to draw the ingot out.... ... now the drastic deformation of the surface helps the waterings to become much more chaotic.. its really more about pattern control and forge techniques..... however....i'm not sure about the swoopy patterns.... i've gotten weird pattern when i etched blades that weren't totally degrease.... but that a different matter.. Greg

24th January 2006, 06:45 PM	#2
Ann Feuerbach Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 133	Hello, I guess it all boils down again to how one defines a Sham pattern.

24th January 2006, 11:37 PM	#5
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,087	There is a very wide variety of opinions about the classification of wootz, what is wootz, how do you classify, etc. I think it can even be split into technical aspects and collector aspects. Speaking from a collector aspect, Sham wootz is most often associated, again from a collectors perspective, with Turkish or Syrian wootz or shall I say that this pattern of wootz is most often associated with those regions. I believe Sham is another word for Syrian. As Greg points out, the sham pattern is mostly recognized as long flowing lines without circular distortions, partial rungs or full rungs. I am afraid I am away and am unable to post an example to illustrate. It is hard to tell from your example but it appears that your first example has some dead spots or inactivity in the patterning most probably due to a failure to control the heat during forging. In the sections where the pattern is visible, it seems to not exhibit the typical sham pattern. The second example also does not appear to be an example of sham. A favorite topic of mine so welcome to the forum and keep the wootz posts coming!

25th January 2006, 05:13 AM	#6
Jeff Pringle Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 189	I thought sham meant plain steel that was etched to look like it was wootz/pattern welded? To photograph patterns in steels, it is often easiest to get a uniform reflection by taking the photo with the blade outside, positioned in such a way as to reflect an overcast sky - you get a very clear shot of the pattern if the blade is lit with uniform, diffuse light. The parallel lines (to the right) in the middle photo indicate that blade might be pattern welded steel, but the photos are indistinct enough to make any attribution a guess.

25th January 2006, 02:31 PM	#7
Gt Obach Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 116	after rereading some of Al-Kindi's words on arabic swords.... i still feel that we are getting too strict with our definitions of wootz/poulad steel. I'm still leaning towards all the crucible steels made in the middle ages, wootz tradition as being wootz steel.... this includes even the lower carbon hypo eutectic's with good pattern.. it is a good matter for discussion..... i'm personally open minded to all of it.. ask yourself these questions.? -- do you think that if the Indian steel makers made a hypo eutectic ingot, and forged it into a sword.... that they wouldn't call it wootz ? specially if it had a watered pattern? -- would it be more likely that they'd have a catagory of quality for such wootz.... noting it's difference from the high carbon wootz.... specially in terms of observable pattern.. !! -- remember......they had no way to tell the carbon level of this wootz..... (no mass spectrometer etc ) maybe i'm getting too excited over nothing..... but i feel that our modern definition is getting away from the middle ages tradition..... as i have mentioned before if sham isn't wootz......... then what about the dendritc pattern.... i've seen this on indian swords..... where there is very little roast time and the watering is very grid like....... are these to be excluded too! i hope there is to be more open dialog on this topic... it's important to discuss this Greg

25th January 2006, 03:23 PM	#8
Gt Obach Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 116	when reading Verhoeven's study on " the key role of impurities in damascus blades" .... he bases his idea on wootz from the Zschokke blades..... yet he totally discounts the analysis of sword no. 8 because it was hypoeutectic..... Before this moment in time..... that sword was concidered wootz !!... obviously so because it was a selected sample for testing and characterizing wootz steel..... -- it must have showed typical wootz pattern with a watered surface !! --. So ....if the observable features of this sword fooled the scientists in this study.... do you think that the Ancient Indians could be more thorough ?? and discriminatory .... now after being discluded from the acceptable ranges of wootz steel is this study.... it is here by declared " Not Wootz " at university, they drummed it into my head to ask the question " Why "..... and to test all theories for repeatability.... the modern definition of wootz is holding less and less water, for me ! Greg