Unusually Large Caliber (?) Percussion Target / Dueling Pistols c1860

[dana_w]

Originally Posted by Pukka Bundook

Very nice pistols Dana.

Very nice indeed. Nice twist barrels, nice fences, Nice engraving and lovely locks!
The bores are not unusually large. We do see bores of pistols of musket size quite often.
2 thoughts come to mind, or two possible uses;

1, Pistols carried by a British officer (And I hate that term, as it is used far too much!) But being the bore they are, they would take the standard musket ball, which would reduce the supply problem.

2, Possibly to be carried in the hunting field or in a Howdah as suggested by Fernando.
This last suggestion has my nod as the most likely, as pistols carried on military excursions were often fitted with a lanyard ring.
Also the high quality suggests sporting use, though many officer arms were also of V. high quality.
Could you show us the lock-work?

I wish we could go back and look at the photos whilst replying, but I would say these pistols are from the 1840's, with the flat sided cocks (hammers) as by the 1850's we see more cocks of rounded form. (of course this isn't cast in stone!)

Congrats on a lovely set!!

Richard.

Thanks for your comments Richard.

To me the barrels look like they have a faux damascus finish.

I have had a chance to own and see "a few" percussion pistols from the mid 19th century. Most have bores sizes around 1/2 (.5) inch, and a few were a little larger, but I've never personally seen one with a bore that is almost 3/4 (.75) inches. I've been looking on-line to see if I could find some. Can you point me at some examples?

I should note that J. D. Dougall & Sons seems to have been making shotguns with this bore size during the time these pistols were made.

I know that officers of the period often purchased pistols like these for their own use. I have a distant relative who was an officer in the United States Marines during the first half of the 19th century. He owned a nice pair not unlike these in some ways. https://plus.google.com/+DanaWilliams/posts/6nwERRQVJfE

The best way to look at the photos while replying is to open another browser window and then view the original post in that window simultaneously. It is helpful.

I agree with you about dating by style, but the information I have shows that J. D. Dougall didn't open a London office until the 1860s.

I'll consider photographing the lock internals for you.

[Pukka Bundook]

Dana,

The style of the cocks on these pistols appears to me more in line with the 40's rather than '60's but that's all I can say!

Dougall was famous for his Lockfast action, and is a very well known maker.

The barrels of your pistols are a stub iron twist, Nothing 'faux' about them.

I'm surprised you have had a hard time finding pistols of this calibre. They were never as common as say 16 or 14 bore, but do show up quite often.
I'd suggest looking at auction sales, or sale archives at places like Holts.

For a back-up in the hunting field or howdah, pistols of 12 to 10 bore are the norm rather than the exception.
My own pistols from this period are smaller bore than these, (16 bore, 20-bore or .62 calibre, and about 22 bore.) Apart from pocket pistols I think bores of half an inch are the exception rather than the rule.

"The Great Guns" by Harold L Peterson, has a chapter on howdah pistols.

You will also find that dragoon pistols, though severely plain are also of the same bore as yours, or just a little larger...roughly .76 calibre to take the standard musket ball.

Best Regards,
Richard.

[Pukka Bundook]

Dana,

Just did a real quick search; "Percussion Manstopper".

Found the following on one page at Google;

Rock Island sold a pair of W/Richards in .65" cal.

Pair at Lewis Drake by W'm and Jno Rigby, Dublin, .69 cal.

On GunStar, (UK) a Harcourt 4" barreled man -stopper in .72 cal.

Guns international, Pair of Westley Richards in .65 cal.

Jno Denner ...Wilson (Dublin) .78 cal.

at 1894 & B4,..w/Richards man stopper in .72 cal

Vintage live auctions,...Bingham man stopper in .76 cal.

All the best,
Richard.

[dana_w]

Originally Posted by Pukka Bundook

Dana,

Just did a real quick search; "Percussion Manstopper".

Wow! Thanks for providing the terms "Percussion Manstopper", and "Howdah Pistol" Richard (AKA Pukka Bundook). Information like that is exactly what I was looking for.

These photos are from a long ended auction at 1898andb-4.com Item 3648

http://www.1898andb-4.com/products.p...+HOWDAH+Pistol

[Pukka Bundook]

Good morning Dana,

Re. dating your pistols, I in no way meant to suggest you date them 'wrong' because of the type of hammers! I was merely saying that if it were not for the London address, I would have put them 10 or 15 years earlier than we 'know" they are, that's all.
It is this sort of thing that gives pause to many little points we may take for granted.
Have you dismounted the barrels? If so, the browning should show much better on the underside.
I am still certain that Dougall would never use any faux twist barrels. I have never even heard of such from this time period amongst better quality British gunmakers, and Dougall was right up there with the best.

To me, I see no reason to believe that these tubes are anything but good quality stub -iron twist barrels.
On the bottom flat, it is not uncommon to see stamped "Twisted stubs" or something similar denoting their make -up.

Pleased the Man-stopper search helped!
In this time period, when the Colt Navy and such were becoming popular, quite a few British officers were casting a jaundiced eye at the latter, as a protagonist could be filled with holes from such small calibre pistols, and Still chop the said officer down.
The solutions were large bore single or double pistols, that had at that time a name we can't use these days, but "man-stopper" holds the same meaning!

All the best,
Richard.

[dana_w]

Originally Posted by Pukka Bundook

Have you dismounted the barrels? If so, the browning should show much better on the underside.

I am still certain that Dougall would never use any faux twist barrels. I have never even heard of such from this time period amongst better quality British gunmakers, and Dougall was right up there with the best.

To me, I see no reason to believe that these tubes are anything but good quality stub -iron twist barrels.
On the bottom flat, it is not uncommon to see stamped "Twisted stubs" or something similar denoting their make -up.

I'll take a closer look and maybe take some more photos.

Originally Posted by Pukka Bundook

The solutions were large bore single or double pistols, that had at that time a name we can't use these days, but "man-stopper" holds the same meaning!

Now you have to tell me the contemporary name. Please

[Pukka Bundook]

Dana,

I'll PM or email you!

Richard.

[dana_w]

Originally Posted by Pukka Bundook

Dana,

The style of the cocks on these pistols appears to me more in line with the 40's rather than '60's but that's all I can say!

Richard.

They sure do, put they are marked London, and Dougall doesn't seem to have been in London during that period. Should I put a date on them that I know is likely to be wrong?

Originally Posted by Pukka Bundook

Dougall was famous for his Lockfast action, and is a very well known maker.

Richard.

True. This information was in my first post

Originally Posted by Pukka Bundook

The barrels of your pistols are a stub iron twist, Nothing 'faux' about them.

Richard.

They just don't look right to me. I think they may be 'faux', but I don't know.

Originally Posted by Pukka Bundook

I'm surprised you have had a hard time finding pistols of this calibre. They were never as common as say 16 or 14 bore, but do show up quite often.
I'd suggest looking at auction sales, or sale archives at places like Holts.

For a back-up in the hunting field or howdah, pistols of 12 to 10 bore are the norm rather than the exception.
My own pistols from this period are smaller bore than these, (16 bore, 20-bore or .62 calibre, and about 22 bore.) Apart from pocket pistols I think bores of half an inch are the exception rather than the rule.

"The Great Guns" by Harold L Peterson, has a chapter on howdah pistols.

You will also find that dragoon pistols, though severely plain are also of the same bore as yours, or just a little larger...roughly .76 calibre to take the standard musket ball.

Best Regards,
Richard.

I'll check Peterson's book. I've certainly seen small calibers, and a few large caliber muzzleloading pistols. Just never seen anything this large from this period and with this style, but I am willing to learn. And that is why I asked the question here.

Thanks again.