Medieval sword type XVI with decorated disk pommel

Cerjak · 6th March 2016, 10:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

Well, you can never be sure that those failures are result of real action, Jean-Luc

.
Who is to know what is the % of probabilities that blade dents are result of combat versus inumerous other incidents ... mostly children and even grown ups playing with them just for fun ... or silliness

.

Fernando
Of course It would be a possibility. However we know that most of these medieval swords were found more or less recently in rivers beds and went immediately in museum or collector hands .Also Since the dawn of time Men’s are always been fascinated by swords so I guess that such object were kept with the greatest care

fernando · 6th March 2016, 10:47 AM

Well, if the dents have the same patina as the whole blade, that would be a good symptom

.

Roland_M · 8th March 2016, 03:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

Well, if the dents have the same patina as the whole blade, that would be a good symptom

.

This is a great sword of high quality.

One can recognize notches from sword fighting by the shape of them.

If the notch is shaped almost like a half drop, it is almost 100% caused by heavy contact from one cutting edge to another.

Roland

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 8th March 2016, 07:47 PM

Salaams All, The sword looks real...but I am not sure about the so called sword on sword strike marks... Can anyone show another similar sword with sword on sword strikes? This weapon came from a deep pool... In the old days great swords were thrown in deep pools ...we know that... so assuming we are looking at about 1000 year old strike marks is this what they look like...? Frankly I would hesitate before plunging into those waters...

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Jim McDougall · 8th March 2016, 08:34 PM

Definitely a fantastic sword!!! There is something about the mysterious charm in these deeply patinated yet intact swords of this kind of antiquity.
It would be interesting to know what sort of provenance is with this piece.
While many swords of this age are river finds, others are of course from bog areas etc. and I have been studying as much as I can find on the kind of condition as varied in different circumstances.

It is indeed an exciting notion to consider the nicks or notches at the blade edges as combat damage, but is it possible these might also be from deterioration of the goethite in the edges, which seem not only obviously the thinner part of the blade, but often resulting from metal variations. As the blades were forged, typically different components and impurities would have been distributed irregularly throughout.

In reading various Oakeshott works, these kinds of infractions can be seen in wide range on many of the excavated swords and along the edges, from relatively minor gaps or nicks, to larger open sections missing along the edges.

Looking at the type of sword, as noted in Oakeshotts typology as a Type XVI, and presumably of c. 1300-50, it is interesting to consider what events might have been occurring in these times. Along with that it is important to note that though these typologies work well as points of reference for classification, they are largely unreliable in accurately dating a sword without corroborating evidence or provenance.

"..Type XVI is really a compromise between types XIV and XV, for the upper half of the blade retains the old flat fullered section while the lower half (the business end of the sword) is four sided and acutely pointed".
Oakeshott , "Archaeology of Weapons", 1962, p.309)

During what is referenced as a transitional period (1320-50) in armour where more reinforced plates to old harness of mail, these also 'transitional' swords developed. Though well within the long period of the Crusades (1096-1487) it seems that the 14th century was relatively without any major campaigns which would fall into that broad category .

Looking to the pommel, indeed the Oakeshott Type G, a simple disc, the cross symbol is most interesting . While earlier swords were inclined to have the cross in their blades, the fashion of placing crosses in the pommel increased. Naturally this might also be considered transitional, but certainly such use occurred earlier as well.
The use of the cross, with its strong presence in variation in heraldry, is tempting to try to use to identify ownership, fealty or other classifications, as far as generally found, we can presume it was primarily a talismanically placed device. In the pommel, which often carried religious relics or charms this seems well placed.

The crosses most often seen were the Greek cross or the Cross Potent, but this is the Cross Fleury, with the arms ended in split leaves, as in the Fluer-de Lis. This one is unusual in having the bases of each arm end rounded as in a bud, rather than intersecting.

Naturally it seems almost instinctive to regard this as French, however in those times things were not quite as clear cut nationally.

Jean Luc, your sword here has inspired me to pretty much 'hit the books', so I beg everyone's indulgence as I rattle away here in another of my 'epic' ramblings. I wanted to learn as much as I could about this sword and its times, so these are the results of my findings.

An absolutely fascinating and exciting piece of history!

Cerjak · 9th March 2016, 11:11 AM

Dear Jim

I should like to thank you very much for the interest which you have shown and expressed in your comment and also in your research about this sword. I would like to focus on the the cross symbol .
There are a multitude of differents types and I ‘m not sure but It seems to me that this cross could be a cross Moline also called “French croix ancrée”.
See below some exemplar I have found.

Best

Jean-Luc

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 14th March 2016, 11:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cerjak

Dear Jim

I should like to thank you very much for the interest which you have shown and expressed in your comment and also in your research about this sword. I would like to focus on the the cross symbol .
There are a multitude of differents types and I ‘m not sure but It seems to me that this cross could be a cross Moline also called “French croix ancrée”.
See below some exemplar I have found.

Best

Jean-Luc

Salaams Cerjak .This is a great subject entering the world of Heraldic symbols and note the religious connotation whereby the sword took precedence over any other weapon thus the position of the cross on the pommel is important. Obviously the insignia occurs on shields etc however it is the sword with which the knight swore allegiance and it stands to reason that the hilt was chosen to carry such an emblem upon the pommel.

9th March 2016, 11:11 AM	#6
Cerjak Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: FRANCE Posts: 1,065	Dear Jim I should like to thank you very much for the interest which you have shown and expressed in your comment and also in your research about this sword. I would like to focus on the the cross symbol . There are a multitude of differents types and I ‘m not sure but It seems to me that this cross could be a cross Moline also called “French croix ancrée”. See below some exemplar I have found. Best Jean-Luc Attached Images

6th March 2016, 10:47 AM	#2
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Well, if the dents have the same patina as the whole blade, that would be a good symptom .

8th March 2016, 07:47 PM	#4
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	Salaams All, The sword looks real...but I am not sure about the so called sword on sword strike marks... Can anyone show another similar sword with sword on sword strikes? This weapon came from a deep pool... In the old days great swords were thrown in deep pools ...we know that... so assuming we are looking at about 1000 year old strike marks is this what they look like...? Frankly I would hesitate before plunging into those waters... Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

8th March 2016, 08:34 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,194	Definitely a fantastic sword!!! There is something about the mysterious charm in these deeply patinated yet intact swords of this kind of antiquity. It would be interesting to know what sort of provenance is with this piece. While many swords of this age are river finds, others are of course from bog areas etc. and I have been studying as much as I can find on the kind of condition as varied in different circumstances. It is indeed an exciting notion to consider the nicks or notches at the blade edges as combat damage, but is it possible these might also be from deterioration of the goethite in the edges, which seem not only obviously the thinner part of the blade, but often resulting from metal variations. As the blades were forged, typically different components and impurities would have been distributed irregularly throughout. In reading various Oakeshott works, these kinds of infractions can be seen in wide range on many of the excavated swords and along the edges, from relatively minor gaps or nicks, to larger open sections missing along the edges. Looking at the type of sword, as noted in Oakeshotts typology as a Type XVI, and presumably of c. 1300-50, it is interesting to consider what events might have been occurring in these times. Along with that it is important to note that though these typologies work well as points of reference for classification, they are largely unreliable in accurately dating a sword without corroborating evidence or provenance. "..Type XVI is really a compromise between types XIV and XV, for the upper half of the blade retains the old flat fullered section while the lower half (the business end of the sword) is four sided and acutely pointed". Oakeshott , "Archaeology of Weapons", 1962, p.309) During what is referenced as a transitional period (1320-50) in armour where more reinforced plates to old harness of mail, these also 'transitional' swords developed. Though well within the long period of the Crusades (1096-1487) it seems that the 14th century was relatively without any major campaigns which would fall into that broad category . Looking to the pommel, indeed the Oakeshott Type G, a simple disc, the cross symbol is most interesting . While earlier swords were inclined to have the cross in their blades, the fashion of placing crosses in the pommel increased. Naturally this might also be considered transitional, but certainly such use occurred earlier as well. The use of the cross, with its strong presence in variation in heraldry, is tempting to try to use to identify ownership, fealty or other classifications, as far as generally found, we can presume it was primarily a talismanically placed device. In the pommel, which often carried religious relics or charms this seems well placed. The crosses most often seen were the Greek cross or the Cross Potent, but this is the Cross Fleury, with the arms ended in split leaves, as in the Fluer-de Lis. This one is unusual in having the bases of each arm end rounded as in a bud, rather than intersecting. Naturally it seems almost instinctive to regard this as French, however in those times things were not quite as clear cut nationally. Jean Luc, your sword here has inspired me to pretty much 'hit the books', so I beg everyone's indulgence as I rattle away here in another of my 'epic' ramblings. I wanted to learn as much as I could about this sword and its times, so these are the results of my findings. An absolutely fascinating and exciting piece of history!