First Choora

Gavin Nugent · 4th March 2016, 01:13 AM

Another great assessment Jim.

Harry, I too would place this in the first 20-30years of the 20th century, they were made well after this too I am sure.

There are two schools of thought with these, one is they were never before 1900, the other is that they were...evidence does show these, as Jim referenced, that they appear well before 1900...but back to yours.

The overall designs and material to me, point to the early 20th century. To compare horses to horses, I too have one remaining in my collections, that if you saw it at face value, you'd say 19th century for sure as it is a superb quality for the type and has a wootz blade... but, it is named and dated as Lofty helpfully translated, dated to 1901 in our calendar. One could certainly argue both sides of the fence for it saying the inscription came later and wootz much be earlier, but equally, wootz blades were still being forged in to the early 20th century within Central Asia.

Gav

Bob A · 4th March 2016, 01:54 AM

Hilt is bone, certainly.

What checks me is the decoration. I haven't noted much of the sort of deco on the surface of the blade in the examples I've seen; it seems somehow out of place. Additionally, the brass inserts on the top are also unfamiliar to me. There's a lot of decoration on the top edge of the knife which seems like a lot of effort, but again looks a bit "off" to me. Couple that with the scabbard, which is not as fancy as I'd expect for all the effort put into decorating the knife, and the whole package would put me off, somewhat.

I am far from an expert, so please take my observations with as much salt as you require. While I have no problem attributing the knife to Afghanistan, the bits don't quite add up to being something typically found there, as carried by the locals. I would not at all mind being proved wrong, and pictures of other similar examples would be welcomed.

harrywagner · 4th March 2016, 03:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob A

Hilt is bone, certainly.

What checks me is the decoration. I haven't noted much of the sort of deco on the surface of the blade in the examples I've seen; it seems somehow out of place. Additionally, the brass inserts on the top are also unfamiliar to me. There's a lot of decoration on the top edge of the knife which seems like a lot of effort, but again looks a bit "off" to me. Couple that with the scabbard, which is not as fancy as I'd expect for all the effort put into decorating the knife, and the whole package would put me off, somewhat.

I am far from an expert, so please take my observations with as much salt as you require. While I have no problem attributing the knife to Afghanistan, the bits don't quite add up to being something typically found there, as carried by the locals. I would not at all mind being proved wrong, and pictures of other similar examples would be welcomed.

Thanks Bob! I don't know what to make of it. Good observation about the sheath. The knife, when pushed all the way in, pokes, just slightly out the tip. Possibly a replacement sheath? Thanks also for answering the "brass or gold" question for me. I have a difficult time differentiating the two sometimes.

Bob A · 4th March 2016, 04:26 AM

Well, after posting, I looked around online at a number of these knives, and found that the decorations on the hilt were rather more common that I had recalled, and rather similar to yours. So score one against my shooting from the lip, so to speak.

Still, the markings on the flat of the blade continue to give me pause, so it's possible that I'm not quite so inept a fool as I give myself credit for being.

As to brass or gold, I'm inclined toward brass, but that's probably easily answered by a jeweler/pawnbroker, who will have a test kit for determining that sort of thing fairly easily.

If there's any other faulty information I can offer you, don't hesitate to ask.

estcrh · 4th March 2016, 06:50 AM

The origin and dating of the small Afghan dagger currently called "choora" is rather murky, Here is George Stone's discription and image. The bottom photo seems to show a choora being worn, it is from around 1920, from an album of 65 photographs compiled by Major General W M Kirke, Waziristan, North West Frontier (1920-1937). National Army Museum, Study collection.

Quote:

Mahsuds in Waziristan, circa 1920.

The Mahsuds were Pathan tribesmen who inhabited Waziristan. They were probably the most formidable fighters on the frontier. Highly mobile, able to live off the most meagre rations, and fine shots, they were perfectly adapted to their mountainous homeland. Fiercely independent, they had honed their fighting skills by years of raiding the settled areas to the east, along the Indus, and by attacking the trading caravans that travelled to and from Afghanistan. In 1919 their fighting strength was estimated at over 11,000 warriors. Only the most experienced and well-trained British and Indian units could match the Mahsud in frontier fighting.

harrywagner · 4th March 2016, 12:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by estcrh

The origin and dating of the small Afghan dagger currently called "choora" is rather murky, Here is George Stone's discription and image. The bottom photo seems to show a choora being worn, it is from around 1920, from an album of 65 photographs compiled by Major General W M Kirke, Waziristan, North West Frontier (1920-1937). National Army Museum, Study collection.

Thanks estcrh! I love that photo. I did not realize I was resurrecting a contentious debate when I wrote that I thought it was 19c. The fullers on this one and the one in the photo you have provided look the same to me. I would call it a fuller "on steroids".

ariel · 4th March 2016, 01:24 PM

Harry,
Chooras are very much a " redneck" weapon, and I have never seen any gold on one of them. A slab of ivory for a hilt was the highest they aspired to. Brass, on the other hand, was rampant both in the 19 as well as 20 centuries. They used it widely both for certain parts as well as for decoration.
Dating chooras is difficult, don't kick yourself. There are very few inscribed ones, and we largely go by the condition of the example. I showed here two with worn out and beetle-eaten wooden scabbards with glued-on paper labels showing dates ( of collection?)around 1850. The veracity of dated labels was confirmed by a world-class professional in restoring/preserving old islamic manuscripts and their covers. That's likely the best we can do...... The only unquestionably old example I know is pictured by Egerton in his book, and this only because of the year the book was published.

I would also date yours to the mid-20 century the earliest, but strictly on the basis of its condition. Don't despair: they haven't changed one iota over almost 200 years. Enjoy!

ariel · 4th March 2016, 02:04 AM

Gavin,
Somehow I missed your wootz Choora dated 1901.
Can you direct me to the topic with pics?
Thanks

harrywagner · 4th March 2016, 02:59 AM

Jim, Gavin, - many thanks! 19thc was just a guess on my part. I am terrible at determining an objects age. Fortunately it is not a big deal for me. It took some looking to find one of these that was complete, had only minor condition issues, and was within my budget. I will be happy if it's not a fake!

A couple of questions:
- Is this wootz? It almost looks like patterned steel the way it seems divided into sections. I have only one other knife that I believe has a wootz blade and the steel looks quite different.
- Is the inlay gold or brass? It looks like gold to me but I have been fooled before. Ditto for silver and some steel. I "think" this is steel with a small gold inlay.

Thanks again to you both for the help, and for the info, map, photo, etc. Much appreciated.

Harry

Gavin Nugent · 5th March 2016, 12:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

Gavin,
Somehow I missed your wootz Choora dated 1901.
Can you direct me to the topic with pics?
Thanks

You did not miss it Ariel, you entered in to discussion about it.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...9&postcount=48

Gavin

kronckew · 5th March 2016, 06:08 PM

the blade on the OP's choora seems etched with floral patterns like mine rather than pattern welded. i suspect the yellow metal is brass. the blade/brass sawtoothed bolster area & some spine bits appears to have a red supstance painted on, similar to mine, it may be a decorative but not very durable waxy substance.

mine is a bit more decorative with copper and brass spine inlays. some of the grip spacers, like the OP's, are aluminum, a regal metal before the hall process. the razor sharp needle pointed blade has silver, gold, and copper flower decorations. red coral beads on silver wire on the pommel ring for a bit more bling.

very plain wood interior brass covered scabbard i think may have had a fancy cloth or leather cover which is now missing. the hanger portion is aluminum and the two rings are soldered copper.

i suspect the sheet aluminum grip spacers on our knives puts the date to more recent than earlier.

harrywagner · 5th March 2016, 06:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kronckew

the blade on the OP's choora seems etched with floral patterns like mine rather than pattern welded. i suspect the yellow metal is brass. the blade/brass sawtoothed bolster area & some spine bits appears to have a red supstance painted on, similar to mine, it may be a decorative but not very durable waxy substance.

mine is a bit more decorative with copper and brass spine inlays. some of the grip spacers are aluminum, a regal metal before the hall process. the razor sharp needle pointed blade has silver, gold, and copper flower decorations. red coral beads on silver wire on the pommel ring for a bit more bling.

very plain wood interior brass covered scabbard i think may have had a fancy cloth or leather cover which is now missing. the hanger portion is aluminum and the two rings are soldered copper.

Thank you very much! The patterns on the blade do seem similar. Too much so to be coincidence (IMO). Absolutely gorgeous knife. Thanks for sharing it.

kronckew · 5th March 2016, 06:34 PM

the brass grip patterns are similar too. quite possibly same maker or his assistants.

better shot of mine:

ariel · 5th March 2016, 06:39 PM

It is quite interesting how massive are its widely spaced ears! Almost yataghan-ish!

Jim McDougall · 5th March 2016, 06:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

It is quite interesting how massive are its widely spaced ears! Almost yataghan-ish!

Now this is velly, velly interesting!!!
That is most definitely yataghan-ish, and a most attractive embellishment.

kronckew · 5th March 2016, 10:52 PM

wow! learn something new every day! never noticed that before, i assumed from seeing side shots that they all were like mine.

ariel · 5th March 2016, 10:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gavin Nugent

You did not miss it Ariel, you entered in to discussion about it.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...9&postcount=48

Gavin

Gavin,
The pics did not show the inscriptions and the wootz pattern. Do you still have them in your archives?
Will be much obliged.
Ariel

ariel · 5th March 2016, 10:59 PM

Re. the thread mentioned by Gavin : http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showp...99&postcount=48

Royston showed one that was a veritable Dumbo:-)

THAT was what I would call ears!

( I am reposting it here for easier reference. Hope Royston is not offended and this is not against the rules)

Gavin Nugent · 6th March 2016, 12:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

Gavin,
The pics did not show the inscriptions and the wootz pattern. Do you still have them in your archives?
Will be much obliged.
Ariel

Ariel, the knife is still in my collections, not sold and archived.
If time permits I'll find and photograph it.

Gavin

Royston · 6th March 2016, 01:48 PM

Ariel, no problem posting my photos.

Here are a few more of "Dumbo" which show off the ears.

The "nail polish" decoration appears on a lot of these. Anyone know what it is ?

Regards
Roy

harrywagner · 6th March 2016, 02:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Royston

The "nail polish" decoration appears on a lot of these. Anyone know what it is ?

I don't know what that is but I have also seen it on at least one Khyber knife.

5th March 2016, 06:08 PM	#11
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,215	the blade on the OP's choora seems etched with floral patterns like mine rather than pattern welded. i suspect the yellow metal is brass. the blade/brass sawtoothed bolster area & some spine bits appears to have a red supstance painted on, similar to mine, it may be a decorative but not very durable waxy substance. mine is a bit more decorative with copper and brass spine inlays. some of the grip spacers, like the OP's, are aluminum, a regal metal before the hall process. the razor sharp needle pointed blade has silver, gold, and copper flower decorations. red coral beads on silver wire on the pommel ring for a bit more bling. very plain wood interior brass covered scabbard i think may have had a fancy cloth or leather cover which is now missing. the hanger portion is aluminum and the two rings are soldered copper. i suspect the sheet aluminum grip spacers on our knives puts the date to more recent than earlier. Attached Images Last edited by kronckew; 5th March 2016 at 06:29 PM.

5th March 2016, 06:34 PM	#13
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,215	the brass grip patterns are similar too. quite possibly same maker or his assistants. better shot of mine: Attached Images

5th March 2016, 10:59 PM	#18
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Re. the thread mentioned by Gavin : http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showp...99&postcount=48 Royston showed one that was a veritable Dumbo:-) THAT was what I would call ears! ( I am reposting it here for easier reference. Hope Royston is not offended and this is not against the rules) Attached Images

6th March 2016, 01:48 PM	#20
Royston Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Poole England Posts: 443	Ariel, no problem posting my photos. Here are a few more of "Dumbo" which show off the ears. The "nail polish" decoration appears on a lot of these. Anyone know what it is ? Regards Roy Attached Images

4th March 2016, 01:13 AM	#1
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Another great assessment Jim. Harry, I too would place this in the first 20-30years of the 20th century, they were made well after this too I am sure. There are two schools of thought with these, one is they were never before 1900, the other is that they were...evidence does show these, as Jim referenced, that they appear well before 1900...but back to yours. The overall designs and material to me, point to the early 20th century. To compare horses to horses, I too have one remaining in my collections, that if you saw it at face value, you'd say 19th century for sure as it is a superb quality for the type and has a wootz blade... but, it is named and dated as Lofty helpfully translated, dated to 1901 in our calendar. One could certainly argue both sides of the fence for it saying the inscription came later and wootz much be earlier, but equally, wootz blades were still being forged in to the early 20th century within Central Asia. Gav

4th March 2016, 01:54 AM	#2
Bob A Member Join Date: Feb 2014 Posts: 435	Hilt is bone, certainly. What checks me is the decoration. I haven't noted much of the sort of deco on the surface of the blade in the examples I've seen; it seems somehow out of place. Additionally, the brass inserts on the top are also unfamiliar to me. There's a lot of decoration on the top edge of the knife which seems like a lot of effort, but again looks a bit "off" to me. Couple that with the scabbard, which is not as fancy as I'd expect for all the effort put into decorating the knife, and the whole package would put me off, somewhat. I am far from an expert, so please take my observations with as much salt as you require. While I have no problem attributing the knife to Afghanistan, the bits don't quite add up to being something typically found there, as carried by the locals. I would not at all mind being proved wrong, and pictures of other similar examples would be welcomed.

4th March 2016, 04:26 AM	#4
Bob A Member Join Date: Feb 2014 Posts: 435	Well, after posting, I looked around online at a number of these knives, and found that the decorations on the hilt were rather more common that I had recalled, and rather similar to yours. So score one against my shooting from the lip, so to speak. Still, the markings on the flat of the blade continue to give me pause, so it's possible that I'm not quite so inept a fool as I give myself credit for being. As to brass or gold, I'm inclined toward brass, but that's probably easily answered by a jeweler/pawnbroker, who will have a test kit for determining that sort of thing fairly easily. If there's any other faulty information I can offer you, don't hesitate to ask.

4th March 2016, 01:24 PM	#7
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Harry, Chooras are very much a " redneck" weapon, and I have never seen any gold on one of them. A slab of ivory for a hilt was the highest they aspired to. Brass, on the other hand, was rampant both in the 19 as well as 20 centuries. They used it widely both for certain parts as well as for decoration. Dating chooras is difficult, don't kick yourself. There are very few inscribed ones, and we largely go by the condition of the example. I showed here two with worn out and beetle-eaten wooden scabbards with glued-on paper labels showing dates ( of collection?)around 1850. The veracity of dated labels was confirmed by a world-class professional in restoring/preserving old islamic manuscripts and their covers. That's likely the best we can do...... The only unquestionably old example I know is pictured by Egerton in his book, and this only because of the year the book was published. I would also date yours to the mid-20 century the earliest, but strictly on the basis of its condition. Don't despair: they haven't changed one iota over almost 200 years. Enjoy!

4th March 2016, 02:04 AM	#8
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Gavin, Somehow I missed your wootz Choora dated 1901. Can you direct me to the topic with pics? Thanks

4th March 2016, 02:59 AM	#9
harrywagner Member Join Date: Jul 2015 Posts: 373	Jim, Gavin, - many thanks! 19thc was just a guess on my part. I am terrible at determining an objects age. Fortunately it is not a big deal for me. It took some looking to find one of these that was complete, had only minor condition issues, and was within my budget. I will be happy if it's not a fake! A couple of questions: - Is this wootz? It almost looks like patterned steel the way it seems divided into sections. I have only one other knife that I believe has a wootz blade and the steel looks quite different. - Is the inlay gold or brass? It looks like gold to me but I have been fooled before. Ditto for silver and some steel. I "think" this is steel with a small gold inlay. Thanks again to you both for the help, and for the info, map, photo, etc. Much appreciated. Harry

5th March 2016, 06:39 PM	#14
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	It is quite interesting how massive are its widely spaced ears! Almost yataghan-ish!

5th March 2016, 10:52 PM	#16
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,215	wow! learn something new every day! never noticed that before, i assumed from seeing side shots that they all were like mine.