The SHASHKA: what, whom, where, when and how?

Titus Pullo · 22nd January 2006, 08:37 PM

That's a very interesting story! I love to read about it if anyone have any information regarding this. This seems like a very quick and powerful fencing style to me judging from from the lack of large guard, which are not necessary like the Japanese style and the Thai krabi-krabong. Sound very interesting!

Tim Simmons · 22nd January 2006, 08:49 PM

I am not sure you actually fence with combat weapons, fencing is practice and sport. I also feel you are stretching things to think one fences when dueling, which most often ended in a most bloody ungentlemanly fight for survival. Many cavalry troops were used as a shock weapon against infantry positions where the weapon would pierce or cut down often fleeing opponents once thier formation had been breached. Beautiful steel but not the most noble weapon. Tim

Rivkin · 22nd January 2006, 11:36 PM

Concerning the manuals:

Prior to 1810 or so, russian army did not have any standard patterns. Repair and maintanance was also considered to be a private matter of individual cavalrymen. Central russian arsenals rarely included more than 30-50 workers, theoretically responsible for repairing 5,000 or so swords a year. As a result while there were certain preferences (like heavy palashes in cuirasier regiments), all of the weapons were obtained on the individual basis. With this in mind there were no special regulations concerning shashkas and so on.

On the other hand circassians and other northern caucasians did not have any writing system until XIX century (arabic, ughur or turkish runic being used here and there for the purpose of written communication), so not much is known in this direction.

While a lot of russian units used shashkas - circassian (kabarda) heavy cavalry in 1812-1815, later cossacks and tribal units ("wild" division and imperial convoy (bodyguards)) all of these units assumed that a recruit is already accomplished in using his weapons. Most of the observations of russian officers/writers concerning the nature of shashka's use talk not so much about fencing, but about attacking targets (folded rugs, canes etc.), drawing the shashka (shashka is worn edge up and special attention was given knowing how to make the first draw/attack). I don't remember anyone mentioning some complex fencing system.

By far the most important documentation of caucasian's martial arts are small series printed by N.K.V.D. in 1930's. Because the new not-so-secret police needed to organize martial arts training for the recruits, multiple mission were dispatched that collected the information on Caucasian martial arts and assembled them in small books.

These books are very _rare_. I have seen once the one on khevsurian fencing, and it was extremely impressive, detailing the details of dozens of techniques.

Concerning folk dances with shashkas - there are some, however 99% of folk dances that are widely known today are either georgian (highly modernized and almost ballet-like), or dagestanian/lezgi related. In the latter case the emphasis was put on one specific like of dance (for example Mahaev's ensemble "Lezginka") which is very different from circassian dances.\

I have a very good article on the culture of war in Caucasus. While it is largely mased on the tales about great heroes and therefore delivers all-too-noble and rather one sided view of the history, it is very interesting. Unfortunately it is in russian.

ariel · 23rd January 2006, 01:01 AM

Just a brief point about kindjals: despite beautifully sharp and even occasionally reinforced points, they were used as purely slashing weapons. Sticking it in was regarded as inappropriate behaviour and no Caucasian would allow himself to be viewed as less than a perfectly noble knight. Just give him a hint of disapproval and he would right away slash your throat (but NOT stab you!!!).
The test for shashkas was (as Rivkin mentioned) cutting though the "burka"(sheepskin overcoat); it was stood up on the ground and should not have moved after a cut, then the upper part should just slowly slide down; slicing though a silk handkerchief or through a careless and less than polite opponent (apparently the origin for the word "gurda"). Khevsurs (who used heavier swords with guards) practiced dueling while kneeling; the parrying was done mainly by small bucklers. They also used fighting rings worn on the right thumb: with sharpened protrusions (gajjiyeh) or without (satiteh).
Astvatsaturyan (who else?) cites a traveler by name G. Radde who witnessed Khevsuri boys practicing with wooden swords. He said they used "primes, secundas, tercies and quartas according to the best examples of fhe fencing art".
Circassian and Daghestani kids learned to use shashkas early on but I am unaware of any desription of techniques. Since they (the Circassians, especially) valued lightness, sharpness and springiness of the blade, and since they did not use handguards, it seems to me that they did not "fence" as such; rather the entire idea was speedy single blow. And then, turn to the next opponent!
They are incredibe people! Fearless, generous to a fault, wily, cruel, stoic, romantic, with almost rabid sense of honor and loyalty (the latter, of course, when it suited them...). There were hundreds, if not thousands, of them who called themselves "Prince" (despite having only a measly flock of sheep) and vendettas were centuries-old. Since everybody was constantly armed, insults were avenged on the spot and, therefore, extreme politeness was the norm. "The well armed society is a polite society" as the NRA says....
And, to boot, Georgian food and wines have few equals: Alexander Dumas-pere, who traveled to the Caucasus, maintained that only two cusines in the world could be called superior: Chinese and Georgian. Coming from the French......

Yannis · 23rd January 2006, 08:58 AM

Fine thread! There are a lot of things we can write about shashkas. In my personal taste, from all the swords I have in my collection, a shashka is the most well balanced. Very good info about shashkas, where my poor knowledge is obvious, exist in this thread.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=266

One thing I have heard is that the split in the pommel was used for holding the musket steady for better shooting. I don’t know if it is true. Can you confirm it?

Talking about georgian swords, it is a pitty that some late copies destroyed the fame of the antique ones. I envy the winner of this. He got a nice piece in my humble opinion.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...tem=6596431280

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

And, to boot, Georgian food and wines have few equals:

Ah, the georgian wine! The best red I have ever taste was local made in a poor village. If you visit Georgia be prepared for endless toasts.

Radu Transylvanicus · 23rd January 2006, 09:55 AM

And I finally found & ordered that famous Astvashaturian book "ORUJIE NARODOV KAVKAZA", the 2004 re-vised edition, 430 pages and gazilion pics, cant wait to finally see it. Costed me almost three gas tanks, though... better be worthed.

Radu Transylvanicus · 23rd January 2006, 10:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

I am not sure you actually fence with combat weapons, fencing is practice and sport. I also feel you are stretching things to think one fences when dueling, which most often ended in a most bloody ungentlemanly fight for survival. Many cavalry troops were used as a shock weapon against infantry positions where the weapon would pierce or cut down often fleeing opponents once thier formation had been breached. Beautiful steel but not the most noble weapon. Tim

Wikipedia: In the broadest possible sense, fencing is the practice of armed combat involving cutting, stabbing or bludgeoning weapons directly manipulated by hand, rather than shot or thrown (in other words, swords, knives, pikes, bayonets, batons, clubs, and so on)....

It is not necesarily the guys with funny withe tights in the Olympics, could be practiced with weapons, like "back in the days", fencing is a lot like sex, it could be done on your own, very safe and easy but no fun, so its good to have a partner or sometimes depends, if youre really good or crazy you do it with a lot more than one...

That being said, I hope my wife doesnt read the posts...

22nd January 2006, 08:49 PM	#2
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,855	I am not sure you actually fence with combat weapons, fencing is practice and sport. I also feel you are stretching things to think one fences when dueling, which most often ended in a most bloody ungentlemanly fight for survival. Many cavalry troops were used as a shock weapon against infantry positions where the weapon would pierce or cut down often fleeing opponents once thier formation had been breached. Beautiful steel but not the most noble weapon. Tim Last edited by Tim Simmons; 22nd January 2006 at 09:07 PM.

23rd January 2006, 09:55 AM	#6
Radu Transylvanicus Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: 2008-2010 Bali, 1998-2008 USA Posts: 271	And I finally found & ordered that famous Astvashaturian book "ORUJIE NARODOV KAVKAZA", the 2004 re-vised edition, 430 pages and gazilion pics, cant wait to finally see it. Costed me almost three gas tanks, though... better be worthed. Last edited by Radu Transylvanicus; 23rd January 2006 at 10:19 AM.

22nd January 2006, 08:37 PM	#1
Titus Pullo Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 123	That's a very interesting story! I love to read about it if anyone have any information regarding this. This seems like a very quick and powerful fencing style to me judging from from the lack of large guard, which are not necessary like the Japanese style and the Thai krabi-krabong. Sound very interesting!

22nd January 2006, 11:36 PM	#3
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	Concerning the manuals: Prior to 1810 or so, russian army did not have any standard patterns. Repair and maintanance was also considered to be a private matter of individual cavalrymen. Central russian arsenals rarely included more than 30-50 workers, theoretically responsible for repairing 5,000 or so swords a year. As a result while there were certain preferences (like heavy palashes in cuirasier regiments), all of the weapons were obtained on the individual basis. With this in mind there were no special regulations concerning shashkas and so on. On the other hand circassians and other northern caucasians did not have any writing system until XIX century (arabic, ughur or turkish runic being used here and there for the purpose of written communication), so not much is known in this direction. While a lot of russian units used shashkas - circassian (kabarda) heavy cavalry in 1812-1815, later cossacks and tribal units ("wild" division and imperial convoy (bodyguards)) all of these units assumed that a recruit is already accomplished in using his weapons. Most of the observations of russian officers/writers concerning the nature of shashka's use talk not so much about fencing, but about attacking targets (folded rugs, canes etc.), drawing the shashka (shashka is worn edge up and special attention was given knowing how to make the first draw/attack). I don't remember anyone mentioning some complex fencing system. By far the most important documentation of caucasian's martial arts are small series printed by N.K.V.D. in 1930's. Because the new not-so-secret police needed to organize martial arts training for the recruits, multiple mission were dispatched that collected the information on Caucasian martial arts and assembled them in small books. These books are very _rare_. I have seen once the one on khevsurian fencing, and it was extremely impressive, detailing the details of dozens of techniques. Concerning folk dances with shashkas - there are some, however 99% of folk dances that are widely known today are either georgian (highly modernized and almost ballet-like), or dagestanian/lezgi related. In the latter case the emphasis was put on one specific like of dance (for example Mahaev's ensemble "Lezginka") which is very different from circassian dances.\ I have a very good article on the culture of war in Caucasus. While it is largely mased on the tales about great heroes and therefore delivers all-too-noble and rather one sided view of the history, it is very interesting. Unfortunately it is in russian.

23rd January 2006, 01:01 AM	#4
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Just a brief point about kindjals: despite beautifully sharp and even occasionally reinforced points, they were used as purely slashing weapons. Sticking it in was regarded as inappropriate behaviour and no Caucasian would allow himself to be viewed as less than a perfectly noble knight. Just give him a hint of disapproval and he would right away slash your throat (but NOT stab you!!!). The test for shashkas was (as Rivkin mentioned) cutting though the "burka"(sheepskin overcoat); it was stood up on the ground and should not have moved after a cut, then the upper part should just slowly slide down; slicing though a silk handkerchief or through a careless and less than polite opponent (apparently the origin for the word "gurda"). Khevsurs (who used heavier swords with guards) practiced dueling while kneeling; the parrying was done mainly by small bucklers. They also used fighting rings worn on the right thumb: with sharpened protrusions (gajjiyeh) or without (satiteh). Astvatsaturyan (who else?) cites a traveler by name G. Radde who witnessed Khevsuri boys practicing with wooden swords. He said they used "primes, secundas, tercies and quartas according to the best examples of fhe fencing art". Circassian and Daghestani kids learned to use shashkas early on but I am unaware of any desription of techniques. Since they (the Circassians, especially) valued lightness, sharpness and springiness of the blade, and since they did not use handguards, it seems to me that they did not "fence" as such; rather the entire idea was speedy single blow. And then, turn to the next opponent! They are incredibe people! Fearless, generous to a fault, wily, cruel, stoic, romantic, with almost rabid sense of honor and loyalty (the latter, of course, when it suited them...). There were hundreds, if not thousands, of them who called themselves "Prince" (despite having only a measly flock of sheep) and vendettas were centuries-old. Since everybody was constantly armed, insults were avenged on the spot and, therefore, extreme politeness was the norm. "The well armed society is a polite society" as the NRA says.... And, to boot, Georgian food and wines have few equals: Alexander Dumas-pere, who traveled to the Caucasus, maintained that only two cusines in the world could be called superior: Chinese and Georgian. Coming from the French......