Toledo Rapier Info

[fernando]

Now you caught me, Philip
I confess i do not have Hoffmeyer’s work. I took it that these arguments are more based in the offer and demand phenomena, resulting from economic conveniences and in the most, to mystics applied to each case and not in factual scientific judgement. You know, Toledo with its steel brought from Mondragon (País Vasco), the secret tempering recipes, the river Tejo waters and all that. Like Larrañaga and Azpiazu, each one pulls the ember to his sardine.

But i happen to have Lavin's book. Although i only consult it to check on a determined smith or a gun example, i have now actually read a number of pages; as many as the cats allowed me to, with their everlasting interfering curiosity, jumping over to the book while i read it. What i have learnt so far is that the Germans were not that bad; reason why Carlos V and Prince Filipe had acquired a number of arquebuses with the wheel-lock system to furnish the Royal gunsmiths patterns for their manufacture in Spain. That the same Carlos V brought to Spain the famous Marquarts, considered the best he found in Aubsburg, then considered the center of firearms in Europe, to work for him and later Kings. And so it seems as these Marquarts became the local stars, for the King ordered them to come to court (then Toledo) as being two Master Armorers, who were doubtless the two finest in that Empire.
On the other hand, naturally also Portuguese smiths, sometimes quoted by Lavin, would have a say in this subject; but the country been obscured by Spanish Filipes domination during 1580-1640 and the very little material written in this area makes us think that only a residual number of them existed. I am lucky to have a work done by an expert in these things, Sousa Viterbo called A ARMARIA EM PORTUGAL (1907), where he lists hundreds (hundreds) of smiths, makers of armor, swords, crossbows and firearms, of which a master Pero Vasques is recorded to have made the first example in 1461. It is indeed a precious and comprehensive work, where he lets us know not only the smith’s specialities but also the date of their Royal letters of privilege (licenses) and often their production activities, personal events, problems with justice and all.

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[Jim McDougall]

Philip, it is fantastic to have you writing here again!!! Your entries always add profound dimension to these discussions
For example, while I do have the work by Ms Hoffmeyer, I had always pretty much subscribed to the perspective noted by Fernando, and actually did not realize that Toledo remained a most viable center in these times.

I suppose I should have realized that with these Solingen sword smiths who had gone to Toledo in these times to comingle with the smiths there, and taking Spanish versions of their own names (Enrique Coll/ Heinrich Koll) that this might be the case.

I thank you very much for pointing out this essential and important passage, which definitely puts these centers operating concurrently in the proper perspective.

Fernando, I can totally relate to your cat dilemma! I used to have two who inevitably sprawled across the pages of books and notes I was working on as if I had put them there for that purpose. It always reminded me of Ernest Hemingway, who was constantly surrounded by his houseful of cats.
Interestingly, a man who was keenly fascinated by Spain and the Iberian Peninsula.

[Philip]

Fernando's mention of the Rio Tejo brings to mind the ancient Romans, who highly valued the steel made at Toledo. Jim, you probably recall the influence of Hispania on the development of the gladius as well -- reaching back to my grad-school readings, I remember that antiquarians classify two styles of the Roman shortsword, the so-called Spanish and Mainz patterns, distinguished primarily by their blade profiles. Perhaps the former was inspired by Celtiberian prototypes?

At any rate, Roman writers seem to have had high praise for Spanish steel for its superb temper. Contrasted with observations about the long swords of the Gauls, many of which were of softer metal which bent easily.

[Jim McDougall]

While my classical history is more than rusty!!! it is of course well known that Toledo from the earliest times was well reputed for its fine steel. It does seem as Philip notes, that the Roman gladius was adopted in form from the double edged swords of the Celtiberians, which had evolved from the swords of the Hallstadt culture.
I cannot say I know a great deal on the gladius itself or the various forms, as Philip notes, the Mainz and others, but it seems certain that the metal working techniques were enormously benefitted by the character of the ore resources.
With the advent of Muslim rule in Spain in the 8th century, and the many Damascus smiths who were fleeing Syria into Spain, the steel forging skills excelled.

It seems like in the 16th century the moving of the royal court from Toledo to Madrid had a detrimental effect on the industry, and by the latter 17th century the craft was virtually demolished. With the dissolution of the guilds there had been efforts to have foreign makers augment the faltering industry. In Solingen, they were having their own difficulties after the devastating Thirty Years war, and I think that this, as well as the need for smiths in Toledo, may have been the reason for numbers of German smiths actually going to Toledo.
Still, the makers in Solingen were using spurious signatures and marks playing on the well established reputation of Toledo.

While Valencia was certainly a noted source for blades contemporary to Toledo, in fact some references consider them superior , but the production there was much smaller in scale. It does seem worthy of note that when King Carlos III decided to try to revive the industry in 1760, the only place he could find a master craftsman with a few others was in Valencia. By 1780 the royal manufactory was engaged and in Toledos outskirts, but did not reach the former glories of its heritage.

Still, the sound of 'Toledo blade' certainly has that fantastic ring to it!!!

[Philip]

Jim,
Musicians and artists have a well-known reputation for "cribbing" their competitors' and predecessors' ideas, and the blade-making centers of Europe were up to the same shtik as well. As Solingen surpassed Passau in output at the beginning of the 16th cent., its workshops imitated the latter's renowned running-wolf mark in order to cash in on its sterling reputation (I've seen the wolf on blades mounted up as far afield as India and China). In the 19th cent., swordsmiths in the Caucasus were putting the same wolf on their blades; you can see some examples of the originals and the knockoffs in E. Astvatsaturyan, ORUZHIYE NARODOV KAVKAZA (armament of the Caucasian peoples), St Petersburg 2004, fig. 33, p 53. Some of them are pretty true-to-form, but the truly humorous ones display a good deal of artistic license: one of them is more a kangaroo rat or mutant gerbil than anything remotely lupine.

Pp 56-57 of the same book show comparisons of original European blade motifs (the familiar religious figures, hussars on rearing horses, crosses, and Latin inscriptions) and the copies seen on blades forged in the Caucasus. The Muslim artisans did a very credible job depicting subjects like the Virgin Mary, and the Hungarian royal arms, but their attempts at copying Latin text were even clumsier than those of the typical illiterate workman in Western countries -- letters reversed, oddly spaced, or transposed. Sometimes the Caucasians simply gave up trying to imitate the florid cursive German hand, and stuck an Arabic inscription inside the same baroque scrollwork cartouche seen on a typical blade from Germany.

[fernando]

Perhaps one should not reject the idea that, sometimes, blades (or whatever) produced by those who forgered 'trade marks' were so good as those they steal the ID from, but only not so appealing in the market .

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Philip

...the influence of Hispania on the development of the gladius as well ...

Ah, the famous Gladius adopted by the Romans (Hannibal …) who named it as Hispaniensis, as they used to call the whole Iberian Peninsula; Spain was yet to be born and they didn’t like to remember Lusitania headhache.
Most probably inspired in the Falcata, another mythic sword that equipped Viriato and his Lusitanians in the guerilla warfare that terrorized the Roman generals one after the other. History (legend…) tells that these swords had a rather accurate metallurgic process, with an uncommon resistance and flexibility for the period; that their steel was buried under the ground for three years to corrode the weak parts of the metal.
Later in the middle ages Damascus steel appeared as competitor to that of Toledo; said to be famous for its metal-work technique, while that of Toledo was based on a very high quality alloy. But then scholars register that the best Toledo raw material was brought from Mondragon. Was it that its primary forging technique was the first value and the tempering of the sword was an added asset ?
What was in fact that took the Romans to bring along the Gladius … its exceptional design for close quarter combat … or its steel temper… or both ?

[fernando]

I couldn't resist uploading pictures of a few fascinating Iberian falcatas, dated 5th to 2nd. centuries B.C. sold from the Axel Guttman collection at Hermann Historica in 2003.
Note that item #064 has its blade intentionally bent (deceased ritual remnants ?), a detail that, for my ignorant knowledge, contradicts the exceptional temper they were said to have.

.

[mariusgmioc]

Originally Posted by fernando

I couldn't resist uploading pictures of a few fascinating Iberian falcatas, dated 5th to 2nd. centuries B.C. sold from the Axel Guttman collection at Hermann Historica in 2003.
Note that item #064 has its blade intentionally bent (deceased ritual remnants ?), a detail that, for my ignorant knowledge, contradicts the exceptional temper they were said to have.

.

Hello Fernando,
While I am no specialist, I assume the Iberian Falcatas in your photos were of rather low carbon content steel, and while they may have displayed exceptional resilience due to their exceptional tempering, this may have been only exceptional for their period and compared to their Roman counterparts, but may be quite far away from our unerstanding based on modern standards.

Second, even some modern swords can be bent like this as elasticity works only up to a point and then, contingent on the steel composition and micro-structure, either plastic deformation or rupture follows.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

Hello Fernando,
While I am no specialist, I assume the Iberian Falcatas in your photos were of rather low carbon content steel, and while they may have displayed exceptional resilience due to their exceptional tempering, this may have been only exceptional for their period and compared to their Roman counterparts, but may be quite far away from our unerstanding based on modern standards...

Precisely what i want to get at; things may become mythic and legendary, but it helps a lot to contextualize them for a better judgement .

.

[Jim McDougall]

Philip,
Thank you so much for the nicely detailed response to my post, and it is truly rewarding to revisit some of this early history of the sword, something we don't often get to discuss as we examine much more recent weapons.
Very well noted on the character of these markings, in particular that of the famed 'running wolf' of Passau, which seems to have evolved around latter 13th century but of course dates are always debated.

As you note, the marking was taken up by Solingen smiths as they were advancing their production and usurping the business of Passau, among other centers, and applying spurious adaptions of their marks.

The almost whimsical interpretation of these chiseled 'wolf' marks is noted by Ewart Oakeshott in his most venerable "Archaeology of Weapons" (NY 1960 pp222-23), where he comments, "...a mark easily mistaken for the wolf of Passau is a unicorn since both wolf and unicorn only very summarily sketched with a few inlaid strokes, it needs the eye of faith to distinguish an animal at all".

It does seem that the design or stylization was dynamically varied depending on the skill or other as they were applied in various shops by various workers.

There was a most interesting parallel in Toledo, where the famed maker Julian del Rey, c.1470 became the official maker to Ferdinand II of Aragon. As the mark of quality on his blades, he adopted the small dog (perrillo), which was soon taken to represent a fox. Thus any sword with a good blade in many circles was referred to as a 'fox'.
"..thou diest on point of fox"
Shakespeare, Henry V; Act IV; scene 4
I cannot help but wonder if possibly the known use of the 'running wolf' in Germany may have had a degree of influence in his choice of symbol.
I have often wondered if the famed sword 'Lobera' might have obliquely referred to a Solingen blade in its given 'name', referring to wolves.

Also, I am wondering if the 'perrillo' or 'fox' mark applied by Julian del Rey is seen 'Arab' swords as stated by Richard Cohen ("By the Sword", 2002, p.114). Actually I have not seen this mark on examples, and wonder if indeed this became widely used on Arab or other Islamic swords as suggested by Cohen.

Thank you for the informative notes on the Caucasian use of the wolf mark used there on the Chechen blades (said to be termed there 'ters maymal') as noted by Ms. Astvatsaturyan in her outstanding book. It does seem ironic of course that the Muslim artisans faced difficulties copying the already somewhat debased markings and inscriptions from the European examples, which indeed were often already misspelled as spurious copies of others.
The tracking and comparisons of these markings etc really does present fascinating investigative opportunities.