Dragons, Naga and Bakunawa...

[Emanuel]

Hello to all,

Looking at the beautiful hilts of the Sanduko swords, I can't help being reminded of the moro pira with their elongated hilts. Could the pira hilt -although functional in protecting the arm- be a stylized/simplified version of these Sanduko hilts and if so could they represent the same deity/dragon?

The pictures below are both from Spunjer's old posts, I apologize for not asking permission first and I hope he won't mind.

Regards,
Manolo

[Titus Pullo]

I would imagine the one with the hilt made of wood would absorb the shock better on impact, and also cut down on the weight; thus, it makes it easier to use.

[BSMStar]

Originally Posted by Manolo

Hello to all,

Looking at the beautiful hilts of the Sanduko swords, I can't help being reminded of the moro pira with their elongated hilts. Could the pira hilt -although functional in protecting the arm- be a stylized/simplified version of these Sanduko hilts and if so could they represent the same deity/dragon?

Regards,
Manolo

I look with sadness at the nose on my Sanduko, it use to look like the one in the above picture, but an inch or more has been broken off (before I got it).

I think being a pira may have to do more with the blade shape than just the hilt. With the design differences (and correct me if I am wrong) it would seem that the two sword blade and hilt shapes serve different purposes as weapons.

Not all Bakunawas have a long nose (some are very short - see Spunjer's avatar). It would mean that the Sanduko would alone have been the influence for the pira (a bit of a hard sale).... The Sanduko "horn" really serves no protective purpose (it seems to easily break). Mine was broken; I doubt it happened in combat (more like in rough handling).


It would be nice to know why the differences for the Bakunawas.

[Spunjer]

The pictures below are both from Spunjer's old posts, I apologize for not asking permission first and I hope he won't mind.

nah, don't worry about it manolo, lol. post on, bro. i don't get too sensitive on petty stuff like that. if i didn't wanna share it, then i don't have any business posting it on the 'net.

BSMStar,
here's another tidbit:
i had a custom binangon made the last time i was in P.I. for the handle design, i requested the knob style. panday's reaction was, "oh, the chicken gizzard!" i asked, well isn't that suppose to be a stylized 'naga' head? he laughed and told me, "son, where did you ever got that stupid idea from?"
but then again, this is just one panday's opinion...

[BSMStar]

Well Spunjer, I guess one man's naga is another man's chicken gizzard.

[BSMStar]

Here is a link to some great sword pics that I have mentioned before, scroll down.... Love those dragons!!!

http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum.../001969-2.html

[Spunjer]

yup,

concur with ya. nice sundangs in that thread...

[BSMStar]

It seems that Bakunawa was often featured on the Visayan deity hilts... but Bakunawa was not someone you wanted to invite over for dinner. It seems that the Visayans actually wanted to keep Bakunawa away (maybe even at times destroy him). It makes an interesting love/hate relationship. No?

[Tim Simmons]

This used to be in my paternal grandparents house. I always admired it as a little boy. It is really just an old tourist thing but quite striking.



A South American Godzilla. This beats working.

[fearn]

Hi BSMStar,

There are some studies out there about how fossils have been (allegedly) incorporated into ancient art, including some pictures on Greek vases, and legends of the bones of giants (Europe, N America, etc).

That said....how old do you think some of these pots are? There have been pics of dinosaurs around for almost a century now, and I'd be amazed if some forgers....excuse me, indigenous potters working for the faux-archeology/tourist trade...haven't been incorporating some of the images (say, from Charles Knight, or even godzilla) into the "ancient" pots that they sell here and there. Without a good provenance, it's probably better to be skeptical.

As for dragons being misidentified dinosaurs, I suspect they were, in some cases. Thing is, the term "dragon" encompasses a huge range of mythological critters that contain some sort of reptilian element. It can be informative to look at the real diversity in "dragons" especially in Medieval art. Aside from having a reptilian element, it's hard to say exactly what a dragon is: worm, snake, lizard, crocodile? Winged or wingless? Single or multiply-headed? Satan? a treasure guard? in the water, under the earth, flying, etc... you get the idea. It's more of a category than a species, I think.

F

[BSMStar]

Hi Fearn,

Let me try to explain where I am coming from, my comments are not directed toward any one person (just the rambling of an old man).

I do not mean to imply there are not forgeries, or “relics” that were recently made to deceive. Any posted examples that I made were for the sake of stimulating conversation on the idea that … dragon lore is universal, it is found everywhere on the planet.

The modern explanations of dragon origins seem to come from the bias that dragon type animals can not exist, therefore let’s come up with a very ordinary explanation with something we do know about today. We can use the explanation that these people are not too bright, superstitious, misidentify everyday things, you know… place them in the category of those crazy people that see flying saucers and Bigfoot. On close examination, some of these crazy, not too bright, superstitious, misidentifying people happen to be Airline/Air Force Pilots and Biologist with PhDs (in other words, trained experts). Maybe, just maybe we should approach this with a scientific and open mind rather than a precluding bias. New species are commonly discovered and species thought to be extinct for millions of years have been found as well (the Coelacanth for example, thought to be extinct for the last 80 million years - “rediscovered” alive and well in 1938).

Back to the subject of dragons, unless we are willing to accept the idea that all people in all cultures that came before us are not too bright, just superstitious, and are misidentify everyday things… maybe… just maybe, it is worth asking the question how did this universal dragon lore come into being. Keep in mind, we are including cultures like the ancient Egyptians who build the structures on the Giza plateau, a feat with all of our knowledge and wisdom, can not duplicate today. These forgotten people were smart, very smart and their survival depended on their ability to identify what was in the world around them. Just to assume that they were not too bright, just superstitious, or they were misidentifying everyday things is to show either our ignorance or our arrogance. If this was a localized phenomenon, dragon myths would be easier to dismiss… a world wide phenomenon is a bit more difficult to ignore. Something happened that started it all. I hope no one misunderstands and thinks that I am saying the world is crawling with dragons and that they exist beyond a shadow of a doubt. I believe that dragons are worthy of further study, if for no other reason than we all seem to have dragons as a common link… sometime in our ancestral past, real or imagined… and they are still very powerful symbols today.

Personally, I would like to learn as much as I can about dragon myths. I believe they should be shared and not lost to time (and forgotten).

Now that you are hypnotized by this rambling... send all those dragon swords to me.

[fearn]

Sure thing 'Star,

One non-existent dragon sword heading your way...

Seriously, though, there are a couple of ways to look at this, in no particular order.

1. There are no living dragons of any size (yes, there are lizards, fish, etc. that are "dragons," but nothing bigger than human). Since I'm one of the "enemy" (a PhD biologist), I'll point you to a little book called Why Big Fierce Animals are Rare. Basically, large carnivores need huge amounts of food, which means they need large home ranges to support that food, which means that they tend to be rare. We currently live in a world that has trouble supporting grizzly bears on land and whales in the water, because humans are consuming such a huge chunk of the available productivity on this planet. A creature such as a dragon (let alone a hypothetical fire-breathing dragon, which requires even more energy for the flames) would have a heck of a time a) surviving, and b) staying hidden while surviving. This is one of the biggest arguments against the existence of things such as the Loch Ness monster: Loch Ness has enough food to support maybe 1 or 2 dragon-sized carnivores. Unless said carnivores are immortal (unlikely), a population of monsters could not maintain itself in that lake.

2. People like telling tall tales, and dragons make a great story, especially for telling to an anthropologist or folklorist who thinks he's far superior to the person telling the story, and most especially if you're getting paid to tell the story...

3. Fossils do turn up. Back before humans were around, there were enormous predators, such as Tyrannosaurus. As I said in my previous post, there are a few archeologists who have been having fun trying to track down references to fossils in old myths and artwork, with some success.

4. For those who believe in kundalini and acupuncture meridians: the chi (prana, etc) energy is often symbolized as a snake, for instance in the doctor's symbol of a snake twined seven times around a rod. Some groups say that the earth has acupuncture lines as well, and these may be symbolized as giant snakes, aka dragons. This is probably New Agey, but it presents a different take on those stories of dragon-slayers, and it puts a different slant on feng shui.

5. Finally, there are natural phenomena such as rivers, earthquakes, tsunamis, and hurricanes. In places like China, these phenomena (especially storms and rivers) often are said to have dragon spirits, and no wonder. They periodically tear up the landscape and kill people. If you think of a dragon as a warning symbol (i.e. be careful or die horribly), it makes a lot of sense. We could use it today.

That by no means covers possible origins for dragons. Basically, I don'tthink those who believe in dragons are stupid, but I also don't think they are dull realists either. Why assume that the people who wrote "here be dragons" were describing real animals? They were just as good at making things up as we are.

Fearn