Islamic Arms and Armor in The Metropolitan Museum of Art

estcrh · 7th February 2016, 09:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kubur

Alexander is a world specialist, the MET is one of the best museum in the world. This book has nothing to do with coffee table book or dealers catalogs with basic descriptions such as Wagner/Pinchot. I read to learn something not to see what I know already...
I'm just disapointed of their choices, I expected to see different objects. I guess this choice is linked to their own tastes and experience.

Kuber, I know that Alexander has a great amount of knowledge, but people with a great amount of knowledge can publish a not so great book. It depends on the audience that is being targeted and the demands of the publisher. While a book can have nice pictures and be entertining for the masses it may not be as well received by collectors/researchers/dealers etc. I think this is the crux of the questions about this book, will people from this forum learn something from the items descriptions or will we be looking at some pretty pictures and descriptions that are no better than the Mets less than amazing descriptions.

If anyone has an interest in Ottoman armor this essay by Alexander is available online.

http://www.metmuseum.org/research/me...rnal_v_18_1983

Another good armor essay by Alexander
"The Guarded Tablet": Metropolitan Museum Journal, v. 24 (1989)
http://www.metmuseum.org/research/me...rnal_v_18_1983

"Two Aspects of Islamic Arms and Armor": Metropolitan Museum Journal, v. 18 (1983) David G. Alexander.

Jim McDougall · 7th February 2016, 04:19 PM

It is exciting to see this new book by the MET, and of course I will be ordering it as well!
It is always interesting to see opinions, observations and critique evolve as these publications filter into the community, though much as with literature, music and movies, individual judgements will vary according to personal taste and requirements.

While many of the comments exchanged are 'entertaining', there are many very reasonable and actually helpful observations entered in the discussion.
One I most agree with is that in these kinds of books, often intended to reach a much broader consumption than specialized collectors, more attention is directed to an accordingly broader scope in descriptive terms.
I agree this is probably more deliberate than any oversight or deficiency in knowledgeable terminology ......the phenomenon we know well as the 'name game', the specious pursuit of a kind of weapons term 'Scrabble'.

The term 'coffee table' book is of course typically used to describe large volumes of which are profusely illustrated and usually very light on description, detail and explanatory text. Ironically, many of these can be most useful, such as the well known work by Anthony Tirri, which while offering little in reference, is a wonderful collectors guide showing many identified weapons of the level most often seen in collecting circuits.

The mention of dealers catalogs along with these 'coffee table' books of course can be accurately included in many cases, but I would most emphatically note and disagree with the Wagner/Pinchot inclusion.
While Oliver Pinchot of course did deliberately tone down the descriptions and text in this outstanding catalog of Kip Wagners amazing collection,
anyone familiar with his writing on arms will know his knowledge on these arms is unsurpassed.
I would not classify anything written by him categorically with dealers catalogs nor anything to do with coffee tables! however I do know that the Wagner book was admittedly basic in descriptions. I just wanted to clarify.

Most authors know to expect nit picking, and as many have told me, it sort of comes with the territory. Actually in most cases, such derisive notes usually reveal deficiencies in the critics themselves, however in some cases where comments are constructive they can truly offer valuable corrections. These are not only encouraged but very much welcomed by responsible authors.

Good notes guys! Thank you!

ariel · 7th February 2016, 05:48 PM

Jim pre-empted my comment re. Oliver's texts for the Wagner's collection book, but I must add my personal view.

There are several " personal collection" books on the market. Tirri's was a pioneering one, followed by (also his) book on African arms.

Those were followed by several "vanity" books: personal collections of undistinguished and uninteresting examples, mostly acquired in bulk within 3-5 years prior to their publication. Some ( more financially established) owners even commissioned review articles on superficially-related topics from "guns for hire" authors just to give their catalogues a whiff of academicity.

Wagner/Pinchot book is not even in the same universe. It shows carefully-selected outstanding examples of Oriental weaponry that would not be out of place in a major museum.

But for me, Oliver's comments and descriptions are the main attraction. The book is small, the space was limited, but he managed to compress his hard-earned and deep knowledge literally into 3-5 lines per object. If one reads these comments carefully, one finds a wealth of very clever and sophisticated points and even more very wise hints. He managed to open a new window, an unexpected angle of observation on so many objects that I thought I knew well... and, obviously, did not, never thinking about Oliver's twists of discussing them! I cannot recommend it strongly enough!

The Metropolitan book is yet another animal: it is a heavy-duty academic treatise, with references, comparisons with examples from the places I never heard about, attention to the minor details of decoration, inscriptions, historical context, etc, etc.

Mahratt did not like the uncertainty in the attribution of a cuirass ( Persia or India?) and a helmet ( Russia or Iran?). (This is not a critique of him, just an example.) I read these sections carefully, and was astonished to see the humility and the restraint of the authors, who are seasoned arms historians and world-class professionals. It might have been so easy for them to express a "yes or no" opinion: after all, they are THE experts! Instead they went into analysis of obscure details, minor points, iconography and history to establish the attribution point beyond which their writing would cross the line into fantasy or the " my way or highway" conclusions.

This is a hard book to read, and its worth for a beginning collector is limited. But for those who have years of reading, examining, discussing and thinking about Islamic Arms and Armour it will be an indispensable source of postgraduate education.

Jens Nordlunde · 7th February 2016, 06:15 PM

Jim and Ariel - well said.
I too find this a valuable book for collectors, and it is the first one telling about the museums Oriental weapons.

Jim McDougall · 7th February 2016, 07:04 PM

Excellent review and comments on the MET book Ariel!! and especially well noted comments concerning Oliver Pinchot and again , his unsurpassed knowledge, and Jens thank you for your kind note.

It is great to have reviews of published books and of course comments on the authors, however important that in reviewing these that these are personal views and opinions. What is profoundly superfluous and not good form is the critique of others who are noting their views on the subject matter.

Despite that particular 'detour' I am anxious to get this book! I get to make my own judgements on whether the comments of critics are pertinent or not

but these reviews sound pretty good.

Kubur · 7th February 2016, 08:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Excellent review and comments on the MET book Ariel!! and especially well noted comments concerning Oliver Pinchot and again , his unsurpassed knowledge, and Jens thank you for your kind note.

It is great to have reviews of published books and of course comments on the authors, however important that in reviewing these that these are personal views and opinions. What is profoundly superfluous and not good form is the critique of others who are noting their views on the subject matter.

Despite that particular 'detour' I am anxious to get this book! I get to make my own judgements on whether the comments of critics are pertinent or not

but these reviews sound pretty good.

I don't think that you got my point. I have Pinchot's catalogue, its a nice and useful book. But the author is not the same caliber than Alexander. One is a researcher, the other is a collector and a dealer like a lot of members on this forum. Alexander can read Arabic or Persian, I think you understand the difference... BUT I have to admit that a lot of collectors and dealers are much more competent than a lot of curators. It's a complicated situation and I do not think that you or me are competent to judge if people are good or bad. And it was not my intention to let you think that. By the way, Alexander mentions page 12 that foreign terms have been kept to a minimum...

ariel · 7th February 2016, 11:02 PM

Having known Oliver Pinchot for many years , I can assure you that he is an extremely competent person when Islamic weapons are considered.

Jim McDougall · 7th February 2016, 11:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kubur

I don't think that you got my point. I have Pinchot's catalogue, its a nice and useful book. But the author is not the same caliber than Alexander. One is a researcher, the other is a collector and a dealer like a lot of members on this forum. Alexander can read Arabic or Persian, I think you understand the difference... BUT I have to admit that a lot of collectors and dealers are much more competent than a lot of curators. It's a complicated situation and I do not think that you or me are competent to judge if people are good or bad. And it was not my intention to let you think that. By the way, Alexander mentions page 12 that foreign terms have been kept to a minimum...

Thank you Kubur, I didn't realize you were making a point, and certainly you can be the judge of your own competence, not mine, so I would suggest you revise that comment. Actually many of your posts suggest you have reasonable exposure to our subject, and I very much agree with many of your statements especially regarding the MET, and of course Mr. Alexander.
I can say this as I have considerable regard for him and the many works he has produced which have been most helpful in my own research these past decades.

I don't agree with your comment comparing Mr, Alexander and Oliver Pinchot, especially that Oliver is just a dealer and collector and not a researcher. While I do not know Mr Alexander, I have known Oliver for well over 20 years, and often had the opportunity to work with him on many aspects of weapons being researched. Actually he is quite fluent in reading and writing Arabic and Turkish and has as far as I know good knowledge of Persian as well as many other languages. He is a brilliant scholar and researcher who has consulted with many authors and of course other collectors and dealers in advanced capacity.

I think it is important to remember that curators in museums are often restricted by parameters which place demands in other administrative duties over the research which they would be more than delighted to attend to if having the time.
I am not sure if you have authored anything yourself, but if you have or plan to you will appreciate what my point was and then we will have each understood that of each other. I always have great respect for authors, and the work they put into what they publish. I am under the impression that we both agree on that.

estcrh · 8th February 2016, 10:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

The Metropolitan book is yet another animal: it is a heavy-duty academic treatise, with references, comparisons with examples from the places I never heard about, attention to the minor details of decoration, inscriptions, historical context, etc, etc.

Ariel, that is exactly what I wanted to hear from someone, now that is not a wishy-washy recommendion, you have me interested, thanks.

7th February 2016, 05:48 PM	#3
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Jim pre-empted my comment re. Oliver's texts for the Wagner's collection book, but I must add my personal view. There are several " personal collection" books on the market. Tirri's was a pioneering one, followed by (also his) book on African arms. Those were followed by several "vanity" books: personal collections of undistinguished and uninteresting examples, mostly acquired in bulk within 3-5 years prior to their publication. Some ( more financially established) owners even commissioned review articles on superficially-related topics from "guns for hire" authors just to give their catalogues a whiff of academicity. Wagner/Pinchot book is not even in the same universe. It shows carefully-selected outstanding examples of Oriental weaponry that would not be out of place in a major museum. But for me, Oliver's comments and descriptions are the main attraction. The book is small, the space was limited, but he managed to compress his hard-earned and deep knowledge literally into 3-5 lines per object. If one reads these comments carefully, one finds a wealth of very clever and sophisticated points and even more very wise hints. He managed to open a new window, an unexpected angle of observation on so many objects that I thought I knew well... and, obviously, did not, never thinking about Oliver's twists of discussing them! I cannot recommend it strongly enough! The Metropolitan book is yet another animal: it is a heavy-duty academic treatise, with references, comparisons with examples from the places I never heard about, attention to the minor details of decoration, inscriptions, historical context, etc, etc. Mahratt did not like the uncertainty in the attribution of a cuirass ( Persia or India?) and a helmet ( Russia or Iran?). (This is not a critique of him, just an example.) I read these sections carefully, and was astonished to see the humility and the restraint of the authors, who are seasoned arms historians and world-class professionals. It might have been so easy for them to express a "yes or no" opinion: after all, they are THE experts! Instead they went into analysis of obscure details, minor points, iconography and history to establish the attribution point beyond which their writing would cross the line into fantasy or the " my way or highway" conclusions. This is a hard book to read, and its worth for a beginning collector is limited. But for those who have years of reading, examining, discussing and thinking about Islamic Arms and Armour it will be an indispensable source of postgraduate education. Last edited by ariel; 7th February 2016 at 07:19 PM.

7th February 2016, 04:19 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,195	It is exciting to see this new book by the MET, and of course I will be ordering it as well! It is always interesting to see opinions, observations and critique evolve as these publications filter into the community, though much as with literature, music and movies, individual judgements will vary according to personal taste and requirements. While many of the comments exchanged are 'entertaining', there are many very reasonable and actually helpful observations entered in the discussion. One I most agree with is that in these kinds of books, often intended to reach a much broader consumption than specialized collectors, more attention is directed to an accordingly broader scope in descriptive terms. I agree this is probably more deliberate than any oversight or deficiency in knowledgeable terminology ......the phenomenon we know well as the 'name game', the specious pursuit of a kind of weapons term 'Scrabble'. The term 'coffee table' book is of course typically used to describe large volumes of which are profusely illustrated and usually very light on description, detail and explanatory text. Ironically, many of these can be most useful, such as the well known work by Anthony Tirri, which while offering little in reference, is a wonderful collectors guide showing many identified weapons of the level most often seen in collecting circuits. The mention of dealers catalogs along with these 'coffee table' books of course can be accurately included in many cases, but I would most emphatically note and disagree with the Wagner/Pinchot inclusion. While Oliver Pinchot of course did deliberately tone down the descriptions and text in this outstanding catalog of Kip Wagners amazing collection, anyone familiar with his writing on arms will know his knowledge on these arms is unsurpassed. I would not classify anything written by him categorically with dealers catalogs nor anything to do with coffee tables! however I do know that the Wagner book was admittedly basic in descriptions. I just wanted to clarify. Most authors know to expect nit picking, and as many have told me, it sort of comes with the territory. Actually in most cases, such derisive notes usually reveal deficiencies in the critics themselves, however in some cases where comments are constructive they can truly offer valuable corrections. These are not only encouraged but very much welcomed by responsible authors. Good notes guys! Thank you!

7th February 2016, 06:15 PM	#4
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Jim and Ariel - well said. I too find this a valuable book for collectors, and it is the first one telling about the museums Oriental weapons.

7th February 2016, 07:04 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,195	Excellent review and comments on the MET book Ariel!! and especially well noted comments concerning Oliver Pinchot and again , his unsurpassed knowledge, and Jens thank you for your kind note. It is great to have reviews of published books and of course comments on the authors, however important that in reviewing these that these are personal views and opinions. What is profoundly superfluous and not good form is the critique of others who are noting their views on the subject matter. Despite that particular 'detour' I am anxious to get this book! I get to make my own judgements on whether the comments of critics are pertinent or not but these reviews sound pretty good.

7th February 2016, 11:02 PM	#7
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Having known Oliver Pinchot for many years , I can assure you that he is an extremely competent person when Islamic weapons are considered.