When in India "died" wootz?

[Jim McDougall]

Interesting topic Mahratt!!
As far as I have understood, the British banned production of wootz around the 1860s blaming the effects of deforestation but I have yet to find a citable source for this situation. I know that a number of 'iron works' were established by EIC official Josiah Heath around 1825, but to me it is unclear whether these 'iron' works included wootz.
"On Indian Iron and Steel " J.M. Heath, " Journal of the Royal Asiatic Society" V, 1839, pp. 390-97,
In an entry on wootz in the "Cyclopedia of India and SE Asia" by Edward Balfour in 1885, the industry of producing wootz is described with no mention of any proscription or forbidding of production found .

In previous discussions we have had here ( Sept,17, 2010) various comments note that existing wootz billets which must have been stockpiled were probably available to makers of the 'old school' well through the 19th c. but still need cited references to support. Whatever the case, this long standing industry of world famous steel certainly didn't vanish overnight through some bureaucratic order.

[kronckew]

i gather it just died out for economical reasons, excellent easily worked steel and alloys in europe and being exported slowly killed off the more expensive wootz/bulat, it was just easier and cheaper to mass produce high quality weapons almost as good as if not better than wootz.

the current infatuation with the more artistically beautiful patterns in wootz and pattern welded steel, still more expensive than mono-steel alloys, is mainly due to the lack of need for them as weapons, and the desires of collectors, like us, and of experimental archaeologists obsessed with the desire to resurrect the lost secrets.

[mahratt]

Originally Posted by kronckew

i gather it just died out for economical reasons, excellent easily worked steel and alloys in europe and being exported slowly killed off the more expensive wootz/bulat, it was just easier and cheaper to mass produce high quality weapons almost as good as if not better than wootz.

Of course you're right! I agree with you. But the question is, when exactly was "killed" wootz? Why did talk about the middle of the 19th century, rather than the beginning of the 20th century?

And who of the researchers wrote on the subject, proving his words, not just voicing assumptions.

[kronckew]

try this: http://www.wirralmodelengineeringsoc...er_Process.pdf

looks like it started about 1865 when the commercial production of bessimer process steel was commercially available.

[mahratt]

Again, you're right. Thank you for the interesting article. But I am interested to know whether there is a direct mention to the fact that wootz steel production ceased in those years, the 19th century. Stating the reasons

We are now argue that damask steel production was a long and expensive process. I agree. From the point of view of Europeans. But, do manual work is now in India dearly valued? I doubt that 150 years ago the situation was different ....

[kronckew]

Originally Posted by mahratt

... But, do manual work is now in India dearly valued? I doubt that 150 years ago the situation was different ....

india and pakistan are still major suppliers of 'damascus' pattern welded steel sword and knife blades. they still command a premium over a monosteel blade of the same shape.

i would however assume it's the distributor that makes the most money, paying relatively little to the poor kami hammering on the anvil. the kamis and sarkis who forged the blades and made the scabbards and fittings were and are of the 'untouchables', the lowest of low caste in that most nasty of social ranking systems. most employers pay them on the piece work system, so the faster the items are made, and the more items they make per day, the more they get paid.

western smiths are better educated, better paid and expect far more than eastern ones. as you say, likely not far different than in the 19c, even under queen victoria, and her extended family, the kings, kaisers and tsars of the other european nations.

...and the rising use of steam and later electric powered machinery rather than hand tools makes a difference too.

there are a variety of ever changing and mutating conditions, economic, historical, social, political, and scientific all playing their part. it will be interesting to see if anyone comes up with any precise reasonings in the maelstrom.

i have also read somewhere that the mines where the ore used for wootz were playing out, so with the source drying up, and other ore sources not having it's peculiar chemical composition (some say it was a trace of vanadium that made all the difference), some people hid away blooms justincase, which occasionally still show up. hence the wootz blades made in more modern times, using the old blobs of material whose mfg. process had been lost. tracking down the source and date of that theory would be rather difficult. (i do seem to recall a billet of wootz (or maybe bulat) of a few kilos going for an outrageous price on a well known internet auction site.)

[mahratt]

You talk absolutely true. I agree with many of your words. But, I'm not talking about our reasoning (even though they are very correct).
I'm curious to know what was written in the 19th - early 20th century, the British researchers. How could they not notice an event such as the cessation of production of wootz steel and its causes?
Or all the conclusions that the wootz in India stopped producing in the middle of the 19th century, is based solely on circumstantial evidence?

[Roland_M]

Originally Posted by mahratt

Again, you're right. Thank you for the interesting article. But I am interested to know whether there is a direct mention to the fact that wootz steel production ceased in those years, the 19th century. Stating the reasons

According to old sources in most cases wootz was either hard and brittle or soft and easily to bend (Egerton, Oriental arms and armour).

I know that just a few wootz blades from Persia and maybe the Ottoman empire, were able reach the european toughness and they were extremely valuable.

I would say, this is the main reason, european steel was much cheaper and had better characteristics from technical point of view.
I am also convinced, that a top quality wootz sword (Assad Allah for example) is more difficult to forge, than a top class japanese katana (Hizen Kuni Mutsu no kami Tadayoshi quality).

The industrial production of european crucible steel begun in the middle of the 19th century.

In my opinion Indian wootz is a good steel for daggers but unsuitable for swords and sabers.

In all times, a good blacksmith was always very expensive, whether in India, Japan or Europe, everywhere.


Roland

[Richard Furrer]

Originally Posted by Roland_M

In my opinion Indian wootz is a good steel for daggers but unsuitable for swords and sabers.

In all times, a good blacksmith was always very expensive, whether in India, Japan or Europe, everywhere.


Roland

Roland, Then why were so many swords made from that material? Pretty only?

Ric

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by Roland_M

According to old sources in most cases wootz was either hard and brittle or soft and easily to bend (Egerton, Oriental arms and armour).

I know that just a few wootz blades from Persia and maybe the Ottoman empire, were able reach the european toughness and they were extremely valuable..........

I would say, this is the main reason, european steel was much cheaper and had better characteristics from technical point of view..............


The industrial production of european crucible steel begun in the middle of the 19th century............
Roland

Roland, actually crucible steel was known and made in England much earlier than the mid 19th century. So if England had crucible steel since the 1700s why were they still looking for the secret of Indian crucible steel? Perhaps because they thought of Indian crucible steel as being a superior steel, why else?

A History of Small Business in America, Mansel G. Blackford, 2003