Perplexing Mark On Flintlock Holster Pistol

fernando · 29th January 2016, 12:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M ELEY

I'm inclined to believe Fernando K is correct here...

That was also my impression. I just didn't dare to play the expert

corrado26 · 29th January 2016, 05:31 PM

In more than 50 years of collecting European military pistols I never saw this Spanish pistol as an Arabian or Osmanic copy. Copies or pistols made in these countries have very easily to rekognize locks. and mountings that differ widely from These of this pistol The inscription "YZAGV" may be that of a Spanish maker not very well struck and could perhaps end ...YZAGUI", a typical Spanish kind of spelling family names. I think this is a genuine Spanish pistol.
corrado26

fernando · 29th January 2016, 05:46 PM

Well noted, Corrado.
But then and, not wishing to perpetuate this issue and, assuming that the name in the mark is a plausible one, with all your experience of collecting, have you ever seen a lock maker stamp whis own name upside down ?

dana_w · 29th January 2016, 06:09 PM

Thanks for posting an image of the page for me fernando!

Thanks for your comments corrado26. Like fernando and Fernando K, I too find the markings very perplexing. But I am not persuaded the pistol is an Arabian or Osmanic copy.

Here are some additional photos:

corrado26 · 29th January 2016, 06:19 PM

No, I have never seen this, but don't forget: this is not a civilian but a military pistol made in great numbers in the 18. century. Why, I ask you, should'nt it happen that in a moment of little attention the punch was struck upside down? Not beauty was necessary but effectivness, i.e. the name struck into the not yet hardened lockplate had to be readable, not more.
As far as I know the "R" on the thumbplate stands for "REY" = king. I think this might be proof of the originality of the pistol. It demonstrates that this pistol was in stately Spanish property.
Sorry for my bad English
corrado26

fernando · 30th January 2016, 02:59 PM

Alright Corrado, let's agree with you

.
In fact there were Basque gun makers with the name Yzaguirre since the XVII century. In a pistol i have seen, one of these members stroke the mark YZAGE.
So we tend to assume that the guy in charge of marking the pistol of this thread was either doped or falling asleep

.

.

corrado26 · 30th January 2016, 03:24 PM

Thanks Fernando for the gunmakers name Yzaguirre, it is not listed in one of my spanish books (Neal, Spanish Guns and Pistols and Lavin, A history of Spanish firearms) and the "Neue Stockel" so I'll add it immediately.
Thanks
corrado26

NeilUK · 30th January 2016, 04:55 PM

I have some familiarity with 18th century flintlock pistols (while not being an expert), and I tend to agree with Corrado that the pistol is genuine Spanish and more certainly that it is not an Ottoman or N.African copy. The mark being upside down is peculiar but not totally inexplicable, and the curve of the lockplate could explain the missing end of the name.
Neil

Fernando K · 30th January 2016, 06:16 PM

Hey there
By a principle of intellectual honesty, I must rectify
The punch used the antiquated form of the letter I by the letter and the letter V and the letter U
Thus, the punch says I Z A G U (Y Z A G V) which is to say IZAGUIRRE
On page 347 of Ramiro Larrañaga, "Synthesis of the Basque Historical armory" is a drawing of Calvo, pistol model 1753, produced in 1781 by AZCARATE, and the punch says AZCA
On the lisma work, page 222 one IZAGUIRRE, Gabriel is detailed as lockmaker, 1745 and Simon, the factory stockmaker Silillos, 1720
In the work of Barcelo Rubi "Spanish portable armament", on page 219, the gun described in use in 1784, saying it has a escutcheon with a R engraved inside.
The S corresponds to the factory SILILLOS
Sorry for the translator
Affectionately. Fernando K

29th January 2016, 06:09 PM	#4
dana_w Member Join Date: Nov 2012 Location: Southeast Florida, USA Posts: 436	Thanks for posting an image of the page for me fernando! Thanks for your comments corrado26. Like fernando and Fernando K, I too find the markings very perplexing. But I am not persuaded the pistol is an Arabian or Osmanic copy. Here are some additional photos: Attached Images

30th January 2016, 02:59 PM	#6
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Alright Corrado, let's agree with you . In fact there were Basque gun makers with the name Yzaguirre since the XVII century. In a pistol i have seen, one of these members stroke the mark YZAGE. So we tend to assume that the guy in charge of marking the pistol of this thread was either doped or falling asleep . . Last edited by fernando; 30th January 2016 at 03:26 PM.

29th January 2016, 05:31 PM	#2
corrado26 Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Black Forest, Germany Posts: 1,226	In more than 50 years of collecting European military pistols I never saw this Spanish pistol as an Arabian or Osmanic copy. Copies or pistols made in these countries have very easily to rekognize locks. and mountings that differ widely from These of this pistol The inscription "YZAGV" may be that of a Spanish maker not very well struck and could perhaps end ...YZAGUI", a typical Spanish kind of spelling family names. I think this is a genuine Spanish pistol. corrado26

29th January 2016, 05:46 PM	#3
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Well noted, Corrado. But then and, not wishing to perpetuate this issue and, assuming that the name in the mark is a plausible one, with all your experience of collecting, have you ever seen a lock maker stamp whis own name upside down ?

29th January 2016, 06:19 PM	#5
corrado26 Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Black Forest, Germany Posts: 1,226	No, I have never seen this, but don't forget: this is not a civilian but a military pistol made in great numbers in the 18. century. Why, I ask you, should'nt it happen that in a moment of little attention the punch was struck upside down? Not beauty was necessary but effectivness, i.e. the name struck into the not yet hardened lockplate had to be readable, not more. As far as I know the "R" on the thumbplate stands for "REY" = king. I think this might be proof of the originality of the pistol. It demonstrates that this pistol was in stately Spanish property. Sorry for my bad English corrado26

30th January 2016, 03:24 PM	#7
corrado26 Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Black Forest, Germany Posts: 1,226	Thanks Fernando for the gunmakers name Yzaguirre, it is not listed in one of my spanish books (Neal, Spanish Guns and Pistols and Lavin, A history of Spanish firearms) and the "Neue Stockel" so I'll add it immediately. Thanks corrado26

30th January 2016, 04:55 PM	#8
NeilUK Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Scotland Posts: 126	I have some familiarity with 18th century flintlock pistols (while not being an expert), and I tend to agree with Corrado that the pistol is genuine Spanish and more certainly that it is not an Ottoman or N.African copy. The mark being upside down is peculiar but not totally inexplicable, and the curve of the lockplate could explain the missing end of the name. Neil

30th January 2016, 06:16 PM	#9
Fernando K Member Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 671	Hey there By a principle of intellectual honesty, I must rectify The punch used the antiquated form of the letter I by the letter and the letter V and the letter U Thus, the punch says I Z A G U (Y Z A G V) which is to say IZAGUIRRE On page 347 of Ramiro Larrañaga, "Synthesis of the Basque Historical armory" is a drawing of Calvo, pistol model 1753, produced in 1781 by AZCARATE, and the punch says AZCA On the lisma work, page 222 one IZAGUIRRE, Gabriel is detailed as lockmaker, 1745 and Simon, the factory stockmaker Silillos, 1720 In the work of Barcelo Rubi "Spanish portable armament", on page 219, the gun described in use in 1784, saying it has a escutcheon with a R engraved inside. The S corresponds to the factory SILILLOS Sorry for the translator Affectionately. Fernando K