Rapier or Riding Sword?

Jim McDougall · 26th January 2016, 07:22 PM

Thank you Cathey!
I think Ufberth had this nailed from the start, and our subsequent research has primarily found support for that assertion by following this fascinating Blackamoor marking lead.

Iskender, I think the reason nobody has referred to this sword as a 'haudegen' is simply because this is a term in German for these kinds of swords. It is interesting to know however, as like Cathey, I had never heard the term before as I seldom am involved in German language context.

I had not known what Jasper had meant by Styermark either, and found that is the German term for Styria, while Styria is the Latin term for this Austrian region.

This thread has proven a very fascinating exercise in the study of both kings heads and the blackamoor heads.
I have found that Johannes Wundes did use kings heads, and in many cases these bearded kings were used on his blades in this 'triumvirate' style configuration. Other examples of Saxon rapiers c1600 are found with his name and three kings heads. One of these was from Munich with the cross and orb device as well, the other from Dresden.
Another reference notes Wundes using four kings heads, but this seems an exception.

It seems that the crowned blackamoor head may have to do with the rather exalted capacity many Moors held in the Holy Roman Empire, as seen in the case of the 1599 painting by Maarten de Vos, "Adoration of the Magi" with a Moor wearing a crown (representing Biblical King Balthazar) and in Roman attire.

With the Moors head symbolism, it is interesting to note that of the famed Munsten family of Solingen, Andres, brother of Peter, who worked in Solingen 1547-1587, went to Toledo in 1587 (to 1610) where along with a crowned 'A', he used an uncrowned Blackmoor head as his mark.
(Bezdek, p.148; Kinman p.56-57).

Clearly there was a cross influence of the kings heads used by Wundes and in these triangular configurations of three which is seen here with the crowned Blackamoor heads by IAHANNI in Styria. Would that name be an Italian version of 'Johannes' ?

The Blackamoor heads as appears crowned in German context and heraldry seems to allude very much to the Holy Roman Empire and the standing of these Moors in much of the history.

As always, it is amazing how much history we learn from these swords, and the often nuanced stories they tell us as we follow the clues. I know I learn a great deal here from the astute observations by Ulfberth and Jasper and their amazing resources and experience. I am also so grateful for Cathey always sharing these outstanding weapons her and Rex collect.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 27th January 2016, 04:35 PM

Salaams all...This is a fascinating thread .. I found this from the webpage See http://celticowboy.com/Moors%20Head.htm . Quote" The Moor's head is not rare in European heraldry. It still appears today in the arms of Sardinia and Corsica, as well as in the blazons of various noble families. Italian heraldry, however, usually depicts the Moor wearing a white band around his head instead of a crown, indicating a slave who has been freed; whereas in German heraldry the Moor is shown wearing a crown. The Moor's head is common in the Bavarian tradition and is known as the caput Ethiopicum or the Moor of Freising".Unquote.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Jim McDougall · 27th January 2016, 10:27 PM

Excellent follow up with these additional details on the Moors heads Ibrahiim, thank you!

I have found another instance of a rapier c. 1600 with the IAHANNI name in the fuller, the stylized 'anchor' and the Moors head, though single.
In this example with double fullers, the IAHANNI name paralleled in the two fullers.

It is interesting that this single Moors head, though facing differently does seem to have a crown but hard to discern. It is tempting to consider that perhaps the IAHANNI name is relating to the IOHANNES name (of Wundes) which indeed used the three Kings heads in the triple pattern. With the Moors head proclivity in what we may consider Bavarian or Styrian centers and their influence by Italian styles as well as Solingen markings, maybe these influences filtered together here with these rapiers and arming swords, dusagges c. 1590s- 1610 ??

It is further interesting to discover that the Moor or Blackamoor head in heraldry in Europe as well it seems with these markings, rather than representing Moors conquered in battle (an old holding) these represent the high standing in Catholic religious history in many cases.
Again , these weapons give us great insight into historical perspective!!!

ulfberth · 28th January 2016, 01:11 PM

Ibrahiim these are interesting variations on the moors head.
Jim that rapier is similar in style and so is the head.
Here is an Italian or south German rapier around 1600 that has a makers mark head that is not crowned, this one looks lik a roman Emperors head or could it be a moors head to ?
In the fuller IN TE DOMINE SPERAVI

kind regards

Ulfberth

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 28th January 2016, 04:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ulfberth

Ibrahiim these are interesting variations on the moors head.
Jim that rapier is similar in style and so is the head.
Here is an Italian or south German rapier around 1600 that has a makers mark head that is not crowned, this one looks lik a roman Emperors head or could it be a moors head to ?
In the fuller IN TE DOMINE SPERAVI

kind regards

Ulfberth

Salaams Ulfberth ... If I may quote #13 above "Italian heraldry, however, usually depicts the Moor wearing a white band around his head instead of a crown, indicating a slave who has been freed; whereas in German heraldry the Moor is shown wearing a crown". I am however right out of my depth on this subject and invite Forum support !!

Jim, Very interesting on the IAHANNI Wundes which I will have to look at on your blade marks forum site...!

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Jim McDougall · 28th January 2016, 05:31 PM

Hi Ibrahiim,
Good notes on the Moors head shown by Ulfberth, and these head figures indeed have a white headband in Italian circumstances.
Just to clarify, Wundes used kings heads of the regular European form but the IAHANNI examples are with moors heads.
I think these are simply reflecting the IOHANNES on the Wundes blades and exchanging the European kings heads with Moors heads with crowns in German style.

Ulfberth, beautiful example and thank you for the shot of the marking!

It really helps to have this additional perspective as we look more in depth at Catheys example.

Best regards
Jim

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 28th January 2016, 06:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Hi Ibrahiim,
Good notes on the Moors head shown by Ulfberth, and these head figures indeed have a white headband in Italian circumstances.
Just to clarify, Wundes used kings heads of the regular European form but the IAHANNI examples are with moors heads.
I think these are simply reflecting the IOHANNES on the Wundes blades and exchanging the European kings heads with Moors heads with crowns in German style.

Ulfberth, beautiful example and thank you for the shot of the marking!

It really helps to have this additional perspective as we look more in depth at Catheys example.

Best regards
Jim

Salaams Jim, Just fresh from your blade marks and urge others to look at http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ht=blade+marks in particular # 106 #119 #110 and the more important #226 where the Wundes famous crowns are shown as often multiple on a blade.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

27th January 2016, 10:27 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,194	Excellent follow up with these additional details on the Moors heads Ibrahiim, thank you! I have found another instance of a rapier c. 1600 with the IAHANNI name in the fuller, the stylized 'anchor' and the Moors head, though single. In this example with double fullers, the IAHANNI name paralleled in the two fullers. It is interesting that this single Moors head, though facing differently does seem to have a crown but hard to discern. It is tempting to consider that perhaps the IAHANNI name is relating to the IOHANNES name (of Wundes) which indeed used the three Kings heads in the triple pattern. With the Moors head proclivity in what we may consider Bavarian or Styrian centers and their influence by Italian styles as well as Solingen markings, maybe these influences filtered together here with these rapiers and arming swords, dusagges c. 1590s- 1610 ?? It is further interesting to discover that the Moor or Blackamoor head in heraldry in Europe as well it seems with these markings, rather than representing Moors conquered in battle (an old holding) these represent the high standing in Catholic religious history in many cases. Again , these weapons give us great insight into historical perspective!!! Attached Images

28th January 2016, 01:11 PM	#4
ulfberth Member Join Date: Jul 2014 Posts: 413	Ibrahiim these are interesting variations on the moors head. Jim that rapier is similar in style and so is the head. Here is an Italian or south German rapier around 1600 that has a makers mark head that is not crowned, this one looks lik a roman Emperors head or could it be a moors head to ? In the fuller IN TE DOMINE SPERAVI kind regards Ulfberth Attached Images

26th January 2016, 07:22 PM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,194	Thank you Cathey! I think Ufberth had this nailed from the start, and our subsequent research has primarily found support for that assertion by following this fascinating Blackamoor marking lead. Iskender, I think the reason nobody has referred to this sword as a 'haudegen' is simply because this is a term in German for these kinds of swords. It is interesting to know however, as like Cathey, I had never heard the term before as I seldom am involved in German language context. I had not known what Jasper had meant by Styermark either, and found that is the German term for Styria, while Styria is the Latin term for this Austrian region. This thread has proven a very fascinating exercise in the study of both kings heads and the blackamoor heads. I have found that Johannes Wundes did use kings heads, and in many cases these bearded kings were used on his blades in this 'triumvirate' style configuration. Other examples of Saxon rapiers c1600 are found with his name and three kings heads. One of these was from Munich with the cross and orb device as well, the other from Dresden. Another reference notes Wundes using four kings heads, but this seems an exception. It seems that the crowned blackamoor head may have to do with the rather exalted capacity many Moors held in the Holy Roman Empire, as seen in the case of the 1599 painting by Maarten de Vos, "Adoration of the Magi" with a Moor wearing a crown (representing Biblical King Balthazar) and in Roman attire. With the Moors head symbolism, it is interesting to note that of the famed Munsten family of Solingen, Andres, brother of Peter, who worked in Solingen 1547-1587, went to Toledo in 1587 (to 1610) where along with a crowned 'A', he used an uncrowned Blackmoor head as his mark. (Bezdek, p.148; Kinman p.56-57). Clearly there was a cross influence of the kings heads used by Wundes and in these triangular configurations of three which is seen here with the crowned Blackamoor heads by IAHANNI in Styria. Would that name be an Italian version of 'Johannes' ? The Blackamoor heads as appears crowned in German context and heraldry seems to allude very much to the Holy Roman Empire and the standing of these Moors in much of the history. As always, it is amazing how much history we learn from these swords, and the often nuanced stories they tell us as we follow the clues. I know I learn a great deal here from the astute observations by Ulfberth and Jasper and their amazing resources and experience. I am also so grateful for Cathey always sharing these outstanding weapons her and Rex collect. Attached Images Last edited by Jim McDougall; 26th January 2016 at 07:42 PM.

27th January 2016, 04:35 PM	#2
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	Salaams all...This is a fascinating thread .. I found this from the webpage See http://celticowboy.com/Moors%20Head.htm . Quote" The Moor's head is not rare in European heraldry. It still appears today in the arms of Sardinia and Corsica, as well as in the blazons of various noble families. Italian heraldry, however, usually depicts the Moor wearing a white band around his head instead of a crown, indicating a slave who has been freed; whereas in German heraldry the Moor is shown wearing a crown. The Moor's head is common in the Bavarian tradition and is known as the caput Ethiopicum or the Moor of Freising".Unquote. Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi. Attached Images Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 27th January 2016 at 05:04 PM.

28th January 2016, 05:31 PM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,194	Hi Ibrahiim, Good notes on the Moors head shown by Ulfberth, and these head figures indeed have a white headband in Italian circumstances. Just to clarify, Wundes used kings heads of the regular European form but the IAHANNI examples are with moors heads. I think these are simply reflecting the IOHANNES on the Wundes blades and exchanging the European kings heads with Moors heads with crowns in German style. Ulfberth, beautiful example and thank you for the shot of the marking! It really helps to have this additional perspective as we look more in depth at Catheys example. Best regards Jim