Rapier or Riding Sword?

Jim McDougall · 25th January 2016, 06:29 AM

More research on the blackamoor symbolism in European heraldry and religious context reveals much more complexity. Apparantly much of this has to do with St.Maurice the soldier saint and Black patron saint of the Holy Roman Empire as well as Ethiopian Prester John.

In addition to the See of Freising previously mentioned from Southern Germany, is the seal of the Palitinate city of Lauingen in Bavaria which is a golden crowned blackamoor head . In describing symbolism of this kind with Christian associations, it is noted that a symbol or device presented in three's alludes to the three nails of the Crucifixion.

These additional findings seem to plausibly add support to the southern German probability of this early 17th century arming sword with this symbolism with crowned blackamoor heads of regional significance.

iskender · 25th January 2016, 09:17 AM

why does nobody call this a "Haudegen" ? i have never seen these specifically kingsheadstamps till now, but many different kingheadstamps of different wundesgenerations (fat ,long, ugly, nice,)exist. Stamps wear out ,get lost ,get stolen,also these people had big fights about "copywright-problems" .but thanks to the internet and the possibility of afficinados excanging there knowledge all around the world sooner or later you will now it exact and correct. iskender switzerland

cornelistromp · 25th January 2016, 09:18 AM

pommel is norman type 29 (1550-1640) and the hilt a variation of type 52 (1550-1645).
Iahanni's name appears on several blades of the dussage type , made in styermark in the last quarter of the 16th century.

Actually this early rapier, or cavalry sword as you wish, has much in common with the dusagge; the thick bars, the shell-shaped guardplate and a pommel type that appears on later dussages around 1590-1600.

the crowned Moor mark is known to me, I just need to find where I've seen this.

so a Styrian rapier from the last quarter of the 16thC.

best,
Jasper

Cathey · 26th January 2016, 05:24 AM

Hi Guys

Thank you for the information posted, I think we are beginning to solve the puzzle. Thanks to Jim for finding the Arms of the See of Freising, I have done some further research into the use of the crowned blackamoor heads in heraldry. It appears that the crowned moor was used in Germany, where as in Spain and Italy the Moor wears a scarf.

I feel very comfortable agreeing with the direction of the discussion to date which is that the sword is from the Southern German region of Europe. This being the case and the use of the Crowned moor in heraldry in this area brings me to believe that the heads on the blade may have nothing to do with a maker, and may have been commissioned decoration that meant something to the owner of the sword.

Jasper, Thank you for the detailed analysis of component parts of my sword, it appears it might be a little earlier than my original guess at a date of C1630. The sword you have pictured purchased at auction for £55, what a fabulous buy. The shell guard has much in common with my rapier. Can I trouble you to post pictures of the entire sword, we simply do not see these surface in Australia.

Iskender, what is a Haudegen, I have never come across this term before? I googed it and came up with a Rock Band I suspect this is not what you mean.

Cheers Cathey and Rex

iskender · 26th January 2016, 08:15 AM

haudegen; europäischer degen des 16/17 jahrhundert für Hieb und Stich. iskender

Jim McDougall · 26th January 2016, 07:22 PM

Thank you Cathey!
I think Ufberth had this nailed from the start, and our subsequent research has primarily found support for that assertion by following this fascinating Blackamoor marking lead.

Iskender, I think the reason nobody has referred to this sword as a 'haudegen' is simply because this is a term in German for these kinds of swords. It is interesting to know however, as like Cathey, I had never heard the term before as I seldom am involved in German language context.

I had not known what Jasper had meant by Styermark either, and found that is the German term for Styria, while Styria is the Latin term for this Austrian region.

This thread has proven a very fascinating exercise in the study of both kings heads and the blackamoor heads.
I have found that Johannes Wundes did use kings heads, and in many cases these bearded kings were used on his blades in this 'triumvirate' style configuration. Other examples of Saxon rapiers c1600 are found with his name and three kings heads. One of these was from Munich with the cross and orb device as well, the other from Dresden.
Another reference notes Wundes using four kings heads, but this seems an exception.

It seems that the crowned blackamoor head may have to do with the rather exalted capacity many Moors held in the Holy Roman Empire, as seen in the case of the 1599 painting by Maarten de Vos, "Adoration of the Magi" with a Moor wearing a crown (representing Biblical King Balthazar) and in Roman attire.

With the Moors head symbolism, it is interesting to note that of the famed Munsten family of Solingen, Andres, brother of Peter, who worked in Solingen 1547-1587, went to Toledo in 1587 (to 1610) where along with a crowned 'A', he used an uncrowned Blackmoor head as his mark.
(Bezdek, p.148; Kinman p.56-57).

Clearly there was a cross influence of the kings heads used by Wundes and in these triangular configurations of three which is seen here with the crowned Blackamoor heads by IAHANNI in Styria. Would that name be an Italian version of 'Johannes' ?

The Blackamoor heads as appears crowned in German context and heraldry seems to allude very much to the Holy Roman Empire and the standing of these Moors in much of the history.

As always, it is amazing how much history we learn from these swords, and the often nuanced stories they tell us as we follow the clues. I know I learn a great deal here from the astute observations by Ulfberth and Jasper and their amazing resources and experience. I am also so grateful for Cathey always sharing these outstanding weapons her and Rex collect.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 27th January 2016, 04:35 PM

Salaams all...This is a fascinating thread .. I found this from the webpage See http://celticowboy.com/Moors%20Head.htm . Quote" The Moor's head is not rare in European heraldry. It still appears today in the arms of Sardinia and Corsica, as well as in the blazons of various noble families. Italian heraldry, however, usually depicts the Moor wearing a white band around his head instead of a crown, indicating a slave who has been freed; whereas in German heraldry the Moor is shown wearing a crown. The Moor's head is common in the Bavarian tradition and is known as the caput Ethiopicum or the Moor of Freising".Unquote.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Jim McDougall · 27th January 2016, 10:27 PM

Excellent follow up with these additional details on the Moors heads Ibrahiim, thank you!

I have found another instance of a rapier c. 1600 with the IAHANNI name in the fuller, the stylized 'anchor' and the Moors head, though single.
In this example with double fullers, the IAHANNI name paralleled in the two fullers.

It is interesting that this single Moors head, though facing differently does seem to have a crown but hard to discern. It is tempting to consider that perhaps the IAHANNI name is relating to the IOHANNES name (of Wundes) which indeed used the three Kings heads in the triple pattern. With the Moors head proclivity in what we may consider Bavarian or Styrian centers and their influence by Italian styles as well as Solingen markings, maybe these influences filtered together here with these rapiers and arming swords, dusagges c. 1590s- 1610 ??

It is further interesting to discover that the Moor or Blackamoor head in heraldry in Europe as well it seems with these markings, rather than representing Moors conquered in battle (an old holding) these represent the high standing in Catholic religious history in many cases.
Again , these weapons give us great insight into historical perspective!!!

25th January 2016, 06:29 AM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,194	More research on the blackamoor symbolism in European heraldry and religious context reveals much more complexity. Apparantly much of this has to do with St.Maurice the soldier saint and Black patron saint of the Holy Roman Empire as well as Ethiopian Prester John. In addition to the See of Freising previously mentioned from Southern Germany, is the seal of the Palitinate city of Lauingen in Bavaria which is a golden crowned blackamoor head . In describing symbolism of this kind with Christian associations, it is noted that a symbol or device presented in three's alludes to the three nails of the Crucifixion. These additional findings seem to plausibly add support to the southern German probability of this early 17th century arming sword with this symbolism with crowned blackamoor heads of regional significance. Attached Images

25th January 2016, 09:17 AM	#2
iskender Member Join Date: Jan 2016 Posts: 60	haudegen why does nobody call this a "Haudegen" ? i have never seen these specifically kingsheadstamps till now, but many different kingheadstamps of different wundesgenerations (fat ,long, ugly, nice,)exist. Stamps wear out ,get lost ,get stolen,also these people had big fights about "copywright-problems" .but thanks to the internet and the possibility of afficinados excanging there knowledge all around the world sooner or later you will now it exact and correct. iskender switzerland

25th January 2016, 09:18 AM	#3
cornelistromp Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,060	pommel is norman type 29 (1550-1640) and the hilt a variation of type 52 (1550-1645). Iahanni's name appears on several blades of the dussage type , made in styermark in the last quarter of the 16th century. Actually this early rapier, or cavalry sword as you wish, has much in common with the dusagge; the thick bars, the shell-shaped guardplate and a pommel type that appears on later dussages around 1590-1600. the crowned Moor mark is known to me, I just need to find where I've seen this. so a Styrian rapier from the last quarter of the 16thC. best, Jasper Attached Images Last edited by cornelistromp; 25th January 2016 at 02:10 PM.

26th January 2016, 05:24 AM	#4
Cathey Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: adelaide south australia Posts: 284	Moors head not Queens head Hi Guys Thank you for the information posted, I think we are beginning to solve the puzzle. Thanks to Jim for finding the Arms of the See of Freising, I have done some further research into the use of the crowned blackamoor heads in heraldry. It appears that the crowned moor was used in Germany, where as in Spain and Italy the Moor wears a scarf. I feel very comfortable agreeing with the direction of the discussion to date which is that the sword is from the Southern German region of Europe. This being the case and the use of the Crowned moor in heraldry in this area brings me to believe that the heads on the blade may have nothing to do with a maker, and may have been commissioned decoration that meant something to the owner of the sword. Jasper, Thank you for the detailed analysis of component parts of my sword, it appears it might be a little earlier than my original guess at a date of C1630. The sword you have pictured purchased at auction for £55, what a fabulous buy. The shell guard has much in common with my rapier. Can I trouble you to post pictures of the entire sword, we simply do not see these surface in Australia. Iskender, what is a Haudegen, I have never come across this term before? I googed it and came up with a Rock Band I suspect this is not what you mean. Cheers Cathey and Rex

26th January 2016, 08:15 AM	#5
iskender Member Join Date: Jan 2016 Posts: 60	haudegen haudegen; europäischer degen des 16/17 jahrhundert für Hieb und Stich. iskender

26th January 2016, 07:22 PM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,194	Thank you Cathey! I think Ufberth had this nailed from the start, and our subsequent research has primarily found support for that assertion by following this fascinating Blackamoor marking lead. Iskender, I think the reason nobody has referred to this sword as a 'haudegen' is simply because this is a term in German for these kinds of swords. It is interesting to know however, as like Cathey, I had never heard the term before as I seldom am involved in German language context. I had not known what Jasper had meant by Styermark either, and found that is the German term for Styria, while Styria is the Latin term for this Austrian region. This thread has proven a very fascinating exercise in the study of both kings heads and the blackamoor heads. I have found that Johannes Wundes did use kings heads, and in many cases these bearded kings were used on his blades in this 'triumvirate' style configuration. Other examples of Saxon rapiers c1600 are found with his name and three kings heads. One of these was from Munich with the cross and orb device as well, the other from Dresden. Another reference notes Wundes using four kings heads, but this seems an exception. It seems that the crowned blackamoor head may have to do with the rather exalted capacity many Moors held in the Holy Roman Empire, as seen in the case of the 1599 painting by Maarten de Vos, "Adoration of the Magi" with a Moor wearing a crown (representing Biblical King Balthazar) and in Roman attire. With the Moors head symbolism, it is interesting to note that of the famed Munsten family of Solingen, Andres, brother of Peter, who worked in Solingen 1547-1587, went to Toledo in 1587 (to 1610) where along with a crowned 'A', he used an uncrowned Blackmoor head as his mark. (Bezdek, p.148; Kinman p.56-57). Clearly there was a cross influence of the kings heads used by Wundes and in these triangular configurations of three which is seen here with the crowned Blackamoor heads by IAHANNI in Styria. Would that name be an Italian version of 'Johannes' ? The Blackamoor heads as appears crowned in German context and heraldry seems to allude very much to the Holy Roman Empire and the standing of these Moors in much of the history. As always, it is amazing how much history we learn from these swords, and the often nuanced stories they tell us as we follow the clues. I know I learn a great deal here from the astute observations by Ulfberth and Jasper and their amazing resources and experience. I am also so grateful for Cathey always sharing these outstanding weapons her and Rex collect. Attached Images Last edited by Jim McDougall; 26th January 2016 at 07:42 PM.

27th January 2016, 04:35 PM	#7
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	Salaams all...This is a fascinating thread .. I found this from the webpage See http://celticowboy.com/Moors%20Head.htm . Quote" The Moor's head is not rare in European heraldry. It still appears today in the arms of Sardinia and Corsica, as well as in the blazons of various noble families. Italian heraldry, however, usually depicts the Moor wearing a white band around his head instead of a crown, indicating a slave who has been freed; whereas in German heraldry the Moor is shown wearing a crown. The Moor's head is common in the Bavarian tradition and is known as the caput Ethiopicum or the Moor of Freising".Unquote. Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi. Attached Images Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 27th January 2016 at 05:04 PM.

27th January 2016, 10:27 PM	#8
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,194	Excellent follow up with these additional details on the Moors heads Ibrahiim, thank you! I have found another instance of a rapier c. 1600 with the IAHANNI name in the fuller, the stylized 'anchor' and the Moors head, though single. In this example with double fullers, the IAHANNI name paralleled in the two fullers. It is interesting that this single Moors head, though facing differently does seem to have a crown but hard to discern. It is tempting to consider that perhaps the IAHANNI name is relating to the IOHANNES name (of Wundes) which indeed used the three Kings heads in the triple pattern. With the Moors head proclivity in what we may consider Bavarian or Styrian centers and their influence by Italian styles as well as Solingen markings, maybe these influences filtered together here with these rapiers and arming swords, dusagges c. 1590s- 1610 ?? It is further interesting to discover that the Moor or Blackamoor head in heraldry in Europe as well it seems with these markings, rather than representing Moors conquered in battle (an old holding) these represent the high standing in Catholic religious history in many cases. Again , these weapons give us great insight into historical perspective!!! Attached Images