Rapier or Riding Sword?

iskender · 22nd January 2016, 01:29 PM

possible a blade from solingen made by a member of the wundes family ; johannes wundes the younger, he like his father (ore me) where analphabets ,i have a rapier from his father,there is one in the met. the spelling of johannes,iohannis, etc.is allways slighly different. greetings good luck further investigatins! iskender

ulfberth · 23rd January 2016, 08:48 AM

Hello Cathy,

the sword you presented has an Italian design or style to it, but it could also be south German or Styrian.
In Germany they call this type a riding sword or in everyday language even schwert rapier which means sword rapier, here are some other examples of riding swords or sword rapiers.

kind regards

Ulfberth

Cathey · 23rd January 2016, 11:02 PM

Hi Guys

I think Jim might be on the right track suggesting the marks on the blade are blackamoor heads; I had only discounted this due to the crowns. If anyone has an example of a crowned blackamoor I would be very grateful. I also agree that this sword should be categorised as a riding sword and does have a Italian look about it. Also I think Iskender is probably right and that blade is solingen made by a member of the wundes family ; johannes wundes the younger. I just wish I could find evidence that links these strange crowned heads with him of someone else definitively.

Cheers Cathey and Rex

Jim McDougall · 25th January 2016, 02:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cathey

Hi Guys

I think Jim might be on the right track suggesting the marks on the blade are blackamoor heads; I had only discounted this due to the crowns. If anyone has an example of a crowned blackamoor I would be very grateful. I also agree that this sword should be categorised as a riding sword and does have a Italian look about it. Also I think Iskender is probably right and that blade is solingen made by a member of the wundes family ; johannes wundes the younger. I just wish I could find evidence that links these strange crowned heads with him of someone else definitively.

Cheers Cathey and Rex

Thank you Cathey,
In continuing to search for plausibility in my blackamoor head suggestion, I found one example in heraldry with a crown, though as I noted the uncrowned blackamoor head is significantly well known. I found the attached example in the arms for the See of Freising, in Southern Germany.
This would seem to align with the observation made by Ulfberth in the likelihood of South Germany with this style sword.

The triple configuration as I previously noted is seen in a number of Italian markings in grouping, and can be seen in the triple arcs at the end of the fuller near the cross as well.

I would point out here that the Wundes kings head markings are of course quite different. In Gyngell p.,46) there is an uncrowned unbearded figure of this blackamoor type shown to Matanni of Solingen.
In Boeheim (p.663) there is a crowned kings head to Antanni Matanni c.1550 listed in Italy.

In Gyngell (p.40) there is one of these uncrowned heads as well as the crowned kings head both to Martino Antonio of Solingen.

it would seem these blackamoor heads were somewhat comingled between crowned kings heads and uncrowned blackamoor type heads as were apparently Italian smiths between these centers.

I would be inclined to think of this sword, clearly early to mid 17th c. to bear markings used by Italian makers in this variation and configuration probably in S. Germany or Styria as suggested. and reflecting the influence of the Solingen markings combined with more standard kings heads.

Jim McDougall · 25th January 2016, 06:29 AM

More research on the blackamoor symbolism in European heraldry and religious context reveals much more complexity. Apparantly much of this has to do with St.Maurice the soldier saint and Black patron saint of the Holy Roman Empire as well as Ethiopian Prester John.

In addition to the See of Freising previously mentioned from Southern Germany, is the seal of the Palitinate city of Lauingen in Bavaria which is a golden crowned blackamoor head . In describing symbolism of this kind with Christian associations, it is noted that a symbol or device presented in three's alludes to the three nails of the Crucifixion.

These additional findings seem to plausibly add support to the southern German probability of this early 17th century arming sword with this symbolism with crowned blackamoor heads of regional significance.

iskender · 25th January 2016, 09:17 AM

why does nobody call this a "Haudegen" ? i have never seen these specifically kingsheadstamps till now, but many different kingheadstamps of different wundesgenerations (fat ,long, ugly, nice,)exist. Stamps wear out ,get lost ,get stolen,also these people had big fights about "copywright-problems" .but thanks to the internet and the possibility of afficinados excanging there knowledge all around the world sooner or later you will now it exact and correct. iskender switzerland

cornelistromp · 25th January 2016, 09:18 AM

pommel is norman type 29 (1550-1640) and the hilt a variation of type 52 (1550-1645).
Iahanni's name appears on several blades of the dussage type , made in styermark in the last quarter of the 16th century.

Actually this early rapier, or cavalry sword as you wish, has much in common with the dusagge; the thick bars, the shell-shaped guardplate and a pommel type that appears on later dussages around 1590-1600.

the crowned Moor mark is known to me, I just need to find where I've seen this.

so a Styrian rapier from the last quarter of the 16thC.

best,
Jasper

Cathey · 26th January 2016, 05:24 AM

Hi Guys

Thank you for the information posted, I think we are beginning to solve the puzzle. Thanks to Jim for finding the Arms of the See of Freising, I have done some further research into the use of the crowned blackamoor heads in heraldry. It appears that the crowned moor was used in Germany, where as in Spain and Italy the Moor wears a scarf.

I feel very comfortable agreeing with the direction of the discussion to date which is that the sword is from the Southern German region of Europe. This being the case and the use of the Crowned moor in heraldry in this area brings me to believe that the heads on the blade may have nothing to do with a maker, and may have been commissioned decoration that meant something to the owner of the sword.

Jasper, Thank you for the detailed analysis of component parts of my sword, it appears it might be a little earlier than my original guess at a date of C1630. The sword you have pictured purchased at auction for £55, what a fabulous buy. The shell guard has much in common with my rapier. Can I trouble you to post pictures of the entire sword, we simply do not see these surface in Australia.

Iskender, what is a Haudegen, I have never come across this term before? I googed it and came up with a Rock Band I suspect this is not what you mean.

Cheers Cathey and Rex

22nd January 2016, 01:29 PM	#1
iskender Member Join Date: Jan 2016 Posts: 60	3 kings head stamps possible a blade from solingen made by a member of the wundes family ; johannes wundes the younger, he like his father (ore me) where analphabets ,i have a rapier from his father,there is one in the met. the spelling of johannes,iohannis, etc.is allways slighly different. greetings good luck further investigatins! iskender

23rd January 2016, 08:48 AM	#2
ulfberth Member Join Date: Jul 2014 Posts: 413	Hello Cathy, the sword you presented has an Italian design or style to it, but it could also be south German or Styrian. In Germany they call this type a riding sword or in everyday language even schwert rapier which means sword rapier, here are some other examples of riding swords or sword rapiers. kind regards Ulfberth Attached Images Last edited by ulfberth; 23rd January 2016 at 09:47 AM.

23rd January 2016, 11:02 PM	#3
Cathey Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: adelaide south australia Posts: 284	Crowned blackamoor heads? Hi Guys I think Jim might be on the right track suggesting the marks on the blade are blackamoor heads; I had only discounted this due to the crowns. If anyone has an example of a crowned blackamoor I would be very grateful. I also agree that this sword should be categorised as a riding sword and does have a Italian look about it. Also I think Iskender is probably right and that blade is solingen made by a member of the wundes family ; johannes wundes the younger. I just wish I could find evidence that links these strange crowned heads with him of someone else definitively. Cheers Cathey and Rex

25th January 2016, 06:29 AM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,194	More research on the blackamoor symbolism in European heraldry and religious context reveals much more complexity. Apparantly much of this has to do with St.Maurice the soldier saint and Black patron saint of the Holy Roman Empire as well as Ethiopian Prester John. In addition to the See of Freising previously mentioned from Southern Germany, is the seal of the Palitinate city of Lauingen in Bavaria which is a golden crowned blackamoor head . In describing symbolism of this kind with Christian associations, it is noted that a symbol or device presented in three's alludes to the three nails of the Crucifixion. These additional findings seem to plausibly add support to the southern German probability of this early 17th century arming sword with this symbolism with crowned blackamoor heads of regional significance. Attached Images

25th January 2016, 09:17 AM	#6
iskender Member Join Date: Jan 2016 Posts: 60	haudegen why does nobody call this a "Haudegen" ? i have never seen these specifically kingsheadstamps till now, but many different kingheadstamps of different wundesgenerations (fat ,long, ugly, nice,)exist. Stamps wear out ,get lost ,get stolen,also these people had big fights about "copywright-problems" .but thanks to the internet and the possibility of afficinados excanging there knowledge all around the world sooner or later you will now it exact and correct. iskender switzerland

25th January 2016, 09:18 AM	#7
cornelistromp Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,060	pommel is norman type 29 (1550-1640) and the hilt a variation of type 52 (1550-1645). Iahanni's name appears on several blades of the dussage type , made in styermark in the last quarter of the 16th century. Actually this early rapier, or cavalry sword as you wish, has much in common with the dusagge; the thick bars, the shell-shaped guardplate and a pommel type that appears on later dussages around 1590-1600. the crowned Moor mark is known to me, I just need to find where I've seen this. so a Styrian rapier from the last quarter of the 16thC. best, Jasper Attached Images Last edited by cornelistromp; 25th January 2016 at 02:10 PM.

26th January 2016, 05:24 AM	#8
Cathey Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: adelaide south australia Posts: 284	Moors head not Queens head Hi Guys Thank you for the information posted, I think we are beginning to solve the puzzle. Thanks to Jim for finding the Arms of the See of Freising, I have done some further research into the use of the crowned blackamoor heads in heraldry. It appears that the crowned moor was used in Germany, where as in Spain and Italy the Moor wears a scarf. I feel very comfortable agreeing with the direction of the discussion to date which is that the sword is from the Southern German region of Europe. This being the case and the use of the Crowned moor in heraldry in this area brings me to believe that the heads on the blade may have nothing to do with a maker, and may have been commissioned decoration that meant something to the owner of the sword. Jasper, Thank you for the detailed analysis of component parts of my sword, it appears it might be a little earlier than my original guess at a date of C1630. The sword you have pictured purchased at auction for £55, what a fabulous buy. The shell guard has much in common with my rapier. Can I trouble you to post pictures of the entire sword, we simply do not see these surface in Australia. Iskender, what is a Haudegen, I have never come across this term before? I googed it and came up with a Rock Band I suspect this is not what you mean. Cheers Cathey and Rex