A composite 17 th century sword for comment.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 16th January 2016, 08:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cerjak

This sword is without doubt with a later pommel and grip .
I Believe that the spatulate quillons are from periode .
I ‘m wondering how could be classified this sword ,also I have never seen similar pommel.
Is it an existing type or pure fantasy ?
Also on the blade the inscription ME FECIT SALINGEN with what appear to be a trace of Passau wolf and not SOLINGEN.
I found a link for a similar inscription but unfortunately this link is not working anymore.
https://www.rijksmuseum.nl/nl/collectie/NG-1647
Zwaard met opschrift 1414 ME FECIT SALINGEN zwaard (wapen), l 106,1cm. Meer objectgegevens.
May be somebody has a explanation about Salingen in place of Solingen / Mistake or different place?
Any comment will be welcome.
Best
cerjak

Salaams Cerjak see http://www.therionarms.com/sold/therionarms_c754.html for the same wording. On a sold item.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Jim McDougall · 16th January 2016, 11:07 AM

This sword seems more of a theatrical or perhaps 'parade' type item, but nicely interpreted as such.
It seems that this particular inscription may derive from blades which likely were either from a Solingen maker working in Netherlands or in a shop producing them similarly in those regions

The link that Ibrahiim has posted showing a 'sword' which has been assembled far less deftly in such theatrical style has a genuine old blade in excavated condition as its key feature.
The use of '1414' and the running wolf are simply spurious representations of popular markings used on many Solingen blades.

The so called 'Passau' wolf was one of the most widely duplicated forms and was actually more aligned with Solingen blades where it was heavily used.
Its application as an indicator of quality became well known as it became diffused into other centers across Europe and into other cultural spheres

cornelistromp · 16th January 2016, 02:21 PM

it is a composite sword but certainly no theater or parade sword.

Guillons, flat in the plan of the blade and spatulate in shape occur in the first half of the 17th century. see attachment of a Solingen 1 1/2 sword.
the engraving of the cross is very characteristic for the first half of the 17th century, several hilts with this style of engraving are known to me.
The blade in geometry seems to me early 17th century and seems to fit the guard like a hand in a glove, which may imply that the guard for is made
for the blade.

The pommel is earlier and belongs to a type of 1 1/2 half sword which appeared briefly in the 16th century. it certainly does not belong to the guard. see attachment for this type of sword, and for a similar pommel .
I will post an example of such a 16thC sword with this specific pommel later.

So basically you have an early 17thC sword, with an older pommel ( grip is a later replacement) ......not bad.

best,
Jasper

Cerjak · 16th January 2016, 04:07 PM

Thank you Jasper
Yes, to me this blade belonged to this guard do you have an example to show for a similar sword with the correct pommel ?
Also what is your opinion about salingen mark ?
Best
Jean-Luc

cornelistromp · 16th January 2016, 05:39 PM

mmm..................all 17th century pommels are possible but a (flattened in the plan of the blade) globular or reversed egg-shaped pommel engraved as the guard would look nice.

pommel types such as in http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=17320

mefecit salingen= Solingen made me.

I cannot enter my books but in wapenhandelinghe by jacop de gheyn is a sword of your type if I remember well.

fernando · 17th January 2016, 11:36 AM

.

Henk · 17th January 2016, 11:46 AM

Salingen is a quarter or neighbourhood of Dortmund, Germany.

Cerjak · 18th January 2016, 11:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

.

Hi Fernando and Henk,
So it could be Hans (sword smith ) from Salingen in Germany ?

cornelistromp · 17th January 2016, 04:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cornelistromp

it is a composite sword but certainly no theater or parade sword.

Guillons, flat in the plan of the blade and spatulate in shape occur in the first half of the 17th century. see attachment of a Solingen 1 1/2 sword.
the engraving of the cross is very characteristic for the first half of the 17th century, several hilts with this style of engraving are known to me.
The blade in geometry seems to me early 17th century and seems to fit the guard like a hand in a glove, which may imply that the guard for is made
for the blade.

The pommel is earlier and belongs to a type of 1 1/2 half sword which appeared briefly in the 16th century. it certainly does not belong to the guard. see attachment for this type of sword, and for a similar pommel .
I will post an example of such a 16thC sword with this specific pommel later.

So basically you have an early 17thC sword, with an older pommel ( grip is a later replacement) ......not bad.

best,
Jasper

this is an example of the 16th century sword that belongs to your pommel, the same type of drawing of Hans Doering in post # 5
the blade with two short and one long Fullers characterizes several one+ a half handers in the 16th century.

Cerjak · 18th January 2016, 11:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cornelistromp

this is an example of the 16th century sword that belongs to your pommel, the same type of drawing of Hans Doering in post # 5
the blade with two short and one long Fullers characterizes several one+ a half handers in the 16th century.

Thank you Jasper,
There is no doubt that you have a large documentation and also an outstanding knowledge about the typology of swords components from this period.

Best
Jean-Luc

cornelistromp · 18th January 2016, 01:11 PM

Iam still learning, Jean Luc

attachement: Jacob de Gheyns Wapenhandelinghe van Roers Musquetten ende spiessen, 1607

if you look to the hiltform a simple cross and a knuckle guard, in the 17th century.

CSinTX · 29th January 2016, 02:05 AM

Please forgive me and I hate to be a negative Nancy but I just dont see an early piece here.

The pommel- Looks 20th or maybe 19th century. Look at the sharp edges that appear modern machine made.

The blade- The metal appears old but the script in the blade looks like a modern 20th century font that you would see on something modern. I dont think I've ever seen a script or font like this on anything older than 19th C.

16th January 2016, 02:21 PM	#3
cornelistromp Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,063	it is a composite sword but certainly no theater or parade sword. Guillons, flat in the plan of the blade and spatulate in shape occur in the first half of the 17th century. see attachment of a Solingen 1 1/2 sword. the engraving of the cross is very characteristic for the first half of the 17th century, several hilts with this style of engraving are known to me. The blade in geometry seems to me early 17th century and seems to fit the guard like a hand in a glove, which may imply that the guard for is made for the blade. The pommel is earlier and belongs to a type of 1 1/2 half sword which appeared briefly in the 16th century. it certainly does not belong to the guard. see attachment for this type of sword, and for a similar pommel . I will post an example of such a 16thC sword with this specific pommel later. So basically you have an early 17thC sword, with an older pommel ( grip is a later replacement) ......not bad. best, Jasper Attached Images Last edited by cornelistromp; 16th January 2016 at 03:53 PM.

16th January 2016, 05:39 PM	#5
cornelistromp Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,063	mmm..................all 17th century pommels are possible but a (flattened in the plan of the blade) globular or reversed egg-shaped pommel engraved as the guard would look nice. pommel types such as in http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=17320 mefecit salingen= Solingen made me. I cannot enter my books but in wapenhandelinghe by jacop de gheyn is a sword of your type if I remember well. Last edited by cornelistromp; 16th January 2016 at 06:41 PM.

17th January 2016, 11:36 AM	#6
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	My mistake ... . Attached Images

18th January 2016, 01:11 PM	#11
cornelistromp Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,063	Iam still learning, Jean Luc attachement: Jacob de Gheyns Wapenhandelinghe van Roers Musquetten ende spiessen, 1607 if you look to the hiltform a simple cross and a knuckle guard, in the 17th century. Attached Images Last edited by cornelistromp; 18th January 2016 at 01:26 PM.

16th January 2016, 11:07 AM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,601	This sword seems more of a theatrical or perhaps 'parade' type item, but nicely interpreted as such. It seems that this particular inscription may derive from blades which likely were either from a Solingen maker working in Netherlands or in a shop producing them similarly in those regions The link that Ibrahiim has posted showing a 'sword' which has been assembled far less deftly in such theatrical style has a genuine old blade in excavated condition as its key feature. The use of '1414' and the running wolf are simply spurious representations of popular markings used on many Solingen blades. The so called 'Passau' wolf was one of the most widely duplicated forms and was actually more aligned with Solingen blades where it was heavily used. Its application as an indicator of quality became well known as it became diffused into other centers across Europe and into other cultural spheres

16th January 2016, 04:07 PM	#4
Cerjak Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: FRANCE Posts: 1,065	Thank you Jasper Yes, to me this blade belonged to this guard do you have an example to show for a similar sword with the correct pommel ? Also what is your opinion about salingen mark ? Best Jean-Luc

17th January 2016, 11:46 AM	#7
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	Salingen is a quarter or neighbourhood of Dortmund, Germany.

29th January 2016, 02:05 AM	#12
CSinTX Member Join Date: Apr 2014 Posts: 233	Please forgive me and I hate to be a negative Nancy but I just dont see an early piece here. The pommel- Looks 20th or maybe 19th century. Look at the sharp edges that appear modern machine made. The blade- The metal appears old but the script in the blade looks like a modern 20th century font that you would see on something modern. I dont think I've ever seen a script or font like this on anything older than 19th C.